Family Christian stores open on Sunday

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Abiyah, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. Abiyah

    Abiyah
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    Adam started a thread in the Baptist-Only area
    asking what people thought of Family Christian
    Stores' new policy of being open on Sunday. I
    think it is an interesting question.

    When I finally started going to other churches,
    after I was excommunicated and my husband
    left our old church, which we had both attended
    for over 50 years, I was shocked the attitudes of
    Christian believers toward their chosen day.

    Although I was already settled in my congrega-
    tion, my husband was looking for a church to
    attend, and it was an eye-opening experience in
    many ways. One of those ways was the
    churches' use of the day to sell what Keith Green
    called "Jesus junk" in their little in-church shops.
    Further, I was amazed at the in-church restaurants, Starbuck's-sellers, Krispy Kreme-sellers, fully-
    stocked stores, and raffles done on Sunday. I had
    simply never before seen anything like it.

    Then, while on a trip a couple years ago, there was
    a public Christian store in a mall that was open on
    Sunday. -- Further shock.

    Personally, I think it is amazing on one point and
    not very surprising on another.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    I was in a conservative fundamentalist Christian church one sunday and we were discussing the Holy Day made in Genesis 2:1-3 after having studied the first six literal days fo creation week.

    When it got to the subject of the 7th day - made "for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" and "made a holy day" in Gen 2:1-3 there was a lot of debate.

    Some insisted that any attempt to honor that day as God instructed was a sin. Some insisted that any attempt to select Sunday and honor it just as God instructed mankind on the subject of the creation-memorial of the literal creation week - was also a sin and a blatant rejection of God's plan for His people.

    Others say that you "could if you wanted to" but that God had no say in it.

    Others said that they were blessed by honoring Sunday as though it were the seventh-day memorial God established in Genesis 2 - keeping it instead - but keeping it in the same way as if it were the day God was addressing in Genesis 2.

    In any case, I did not say anything one way or the other.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Ben W

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    The first Christians met together daily, The Sabbath is on Saturday, people can make decrees and change it, yet historically it is Saturday. If they want to open on Sunday go right ahead, there is no instruction in the Bible that shops are to be closed on Sunday, or that the church is required to meet on that day.
     
  4. tragic_pizza

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    Does a pastor/youth minister/organist/choir director work on Sunday?
     
  5. Abiyah

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    Most here know that I do not observe Sunday as a
    sabbath, choosing, rather, to set aside the
    Sabbath. Everyone knows that the priests worked
    on Sabbath, out of necessity, by our God's design.
    He made them responsible for the Temple (or
    Tabernacle) and its service. He did, however,
    command all others to keep the Sabbath.

    Shop owners closed shop. Builders put down their
    tools, unless they were slaves. All believers,
    unless they were priests or slaves, stopped
    working on the Sabbath by our God's command,
    who said that it was a day to be kept holy -- set
    apart -- and that no work was to be done on it.

    Today, many believers call Sunday their sabbath,
    but the day is often not treated as a sabbath at all.
    Rather, excuses are made, loosely backed with
    Scripture, in order to excuse working, shopping,
    garage sale hopping, etc. It surprises me on one
    hand, but on the other, it does not. Bluntly, when
    a new rule is made in order to avoid the original
    one, given by our God, it often happens that in
    time, people stop respecting their own new rule as
    well. It really is understandable. Why bother with
    what our God said about Sabbath when it is not
    the Sabbath anyway?
     
  6. A_Christian

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    I believe that it never mattered what day of the
    week GOD called the Sabbath. What I think GOD
    wants is a day that we devote to HIM. Saturdays
    are fine, Sundays are fine, Mondays are fine, etc...

    There isn't really any way we can be sure that the Saturday we worship on today wasn't actually what would have been Tuesday 7000 years ago...

    The reason to try to hold to one day in particular
    is obvious----two days for GOD back to back with
    twelve days of famine between.

    I personally worship on Sunday, because it is
    traditional with the church I attend. I go on a
    regular basis. When I miss a Sunday, I really
    miss it.

    Now about Christian stores open on Sunday or
    Saturday. My personal feeling is that having
    businesses open 7 days a week has made no one
    happy. The businesses have to pay people to
    work every day. People who shop are spread across 7 days instead of 6. It is sad that nothing seems to get a rest... I feel that Christian bookshop should set an example and be closed on weekends. If they worship on Sunday,
    close on Sunday. If they worship on Satuday,
    close on Saturday. If they worship both days,
    remain closed both days. GOD will reward those that do with real rest.

    If the store cannot remain closed one day a week, perhaps the owners are secular and not Christian at all. It would be better that they just open a regular bookstore and sold everything, and hire
    extra people to work extra hours and spread 6
    days of customers over 7...
     
  7. Abiyah

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    A_Christian --

    Do you seriously think that it never mattered to our
    God when the Sabbath was set appart? Early in the
    Bible, apparently before the Law was given to the
    people, a man lost his life for picking up sticks on
    the Sabbath. Those who harvested manna on the
    Sabbath found that on the Sabbath, it stank and
    was wormy. Our Lord observed the Sabbath,
    saying that not even one yod of the Law would
    pass away until everything prophesied had been
    fulfilled, and Sabbath observance is included in
    that Law. His followers observed the Sabbath,

    Through the decades, Jews, who really can count
    and remember days and the numbers of them,
    have observed Sabbath. Today, they continue to
    set aside the seventh day as the Sabbath. The
    whole world, just as do the Jews, agrees that
    Saturday is the seventh day. Therefore, the
    seventh day, commonly called Saturday, is the
    Sabbath. That old excuse that no one knows what
    day the Sabbath is just wlll not work. :)
     
  8. NeilUnreal

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    I think it's important that people -- and especially families -- have a day that represents a time for reflection and a rest from the grind of earning a living. I don't think it really matters what day it is.

    -Neil
     
  9. BobRyan

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    So if Adam had said "nahhh- let keep day after tomorrow instead" -- that would have been fine with God?

    If some Hebrews at Sinai had said "nahh- we each want our OWN day" what do you suppose would have happened?

    If the saints in the Isaiah 66 scenario where God says of the New Heavens and New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship" -- will they really be inclined to say "nahh not today for me - for me it's day after tomorrow!".

    I don't think you would accept any of these as possible scenarios for you have proposed above.

    Adam could not have "failed to notice" his first full day of life in Gen 2:1-3 so "he got it".

    The Hebrews at Sinai were told "tomorrow IS the Sabbath". They could not fail to miss it.


    Christ (born under the law)kept the Sabbath pre-cross according to Luke. If He as God decided that that day was in harmony with His own day "Lord of the Sabbath.. MADE for mankind" the
    week day order used then is Still known by our calendar system today.

    Paul kept it as well after the cross.
    Likely these two were keeping the same day.


    However - as some have noted - they see no reason to keep it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. A_Christian

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    BobRyan:

    Look fella, I do understand your feelings; however, the fact remains that the calender has been changed more than once and leap years add
    extra days, etc...... We ain't even Jews.

    Christ, knew what the future held and that is why he arrived when he did (GOD's perfect timing). He came to fulfill the LAW on our behalf and you want to dabble in the LAW when it suits your pride (Oh, look at me----I worship on the "CORRECT" day and they don't, I'm such a good fella).

    GOD is looking at the hearts of men through Christ and is not interested in the scent of fatted calfs burning.
     
  11. Abiyah

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    A_Christian --

    This has truly become pitiable. -- Both pitiable
    and humorous at the same time, when someone
    asks you to please accept what the Word says and
    you respond by accusations of pride. Additionally,
    believe me, if it were pride which chose my day of
    worship, I would have chosen Sunday.

    Oh well.

    :)

    By the way -- leap years don't effect days of the
    week. :)

    [ October 08, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  12. A_Christian

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    Abiyah:

    I accept what the Word says. I also understand what CHRIST has accomplished for me in my life and the lives of others. I eat pork and I worship GOD everyday, but attend church on Sunday.

    I go to Sunday School and 11:00 worship service, and then I go to my inlaws house and sometimes have pork for dinner. We use only one set of dishes; by the way, and I like to drink milk with my meal.
    My inlaws have told me of there mold problem in the basement, this past summer; however, there was no mention of tearing the house down. I don't wear side-locks nor do I wear a hat in church-----neither does my wife (I might add she likes to wear slacks in the winter to church).

    If anyone wants to hold to traditions and the LAW to see if they are OK by GOD, that is fine. I'd rather abide by the early church and move on with the freedom GOD has extended to me through Christ.

    The Sabbath day for me is Sunday. I'd hate to be a healthcare worker, a fireman, a policeman,
    or a bus driver, etc... under the LAW.

    The LAW ONLY convicts, CHRIST exonerates 100%.
     
  13. A_Christian

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    Abiyah:

    I'm sorry if I've offened you in any way. I do respect Messianic Jews and I can understand a desire to hold onto traditions; however, I would bet it is fear and not pride that causes you to worry about the day you worship and perhaps miss the heart with which you should accomplish it.

    Your in Christ
     
  14. BobRyan

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    The fact is our history is very - very accurate on the Roman calendar changes since the first century ... and guess what! None of them changed the "weekly cycle".

    Just as we don't change our weekly cycle each leapyear -- EVEN so neither of the two Euoropean systems of calendar change - affected the days of the week.

    Period. This is not a denominational issue - it is a fact of history.


    True enough - to "fulfill" but "not to abolish".

    As Romans 2 states "The Doers of the law WILL BE justified".

    As Christ said "NOT the hearers - but those that OBEY -- receive eternal life" Matt 7.

    As Paul states in Romans 6 "you are slaves to that which controls you" -- we are freed from slavery to sin..

    As Paul states in 1Cor 10 "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man - AND God IS faithful...to provide a way of escape" With each temptation -

    In the NT "obedience" to God is "always a good thing" and the only alternative is "rebellion".

    Do you honor your parents "because it suits your pride"?? get real!

    Do you obey the Mosaic law that we Love God with all of our heart "because it suits your pride"?

    Try to be believable!

    Ooops - I think you "selected another one of the Mosaic laws" instead. Let me see ... yes here it is

    Yes - THAT is the one you selected as "optional".

    No need to worry about being "tempted" on that one - you're engaged in gospel-sanctioned-rebellion-against-it so no need to ask God to be "faithful" as 1Cor 10 states and provide "The Way of escape" from the temptation. You have "sanctified that sin and made it holy".

    Or maybe we should discuss how you select which part of God's word to rebell against and which part to honor and obey.

    Just let me know.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Dave Bussard

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    Why do the vegitarians always condemn the meat eaters?
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Where do you read that?

    In Romans 14 the meat eaters were condemning the Vegitarians. Actually it was the Acts 15 problem of those who were following the instruction NOT to eat meat offerred to idols - vs those following Paul who said that meat offerred to idols was quite ok to eat.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Abiyah

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    A-Christian --

    No, you have misunderstood me. :) I have no fear
    of worshipping on Sunday, nor do I have any fear
    of not worshiping on Sabbath. I try to attend my
    husband's church on occasion, and I have no
    condemnation for going at all. (It is more like I
    feel guilty that I don't go more often just to support
    him.) I try!! :)

    The reason I began attending on Sabbath initially
    was because no one could answer my questions
    with regard to the Sabbath and the switch to
    Sunday worship. I would ask an ask, and not one
    person could give me scriptural backing for the
    switch. Then, I began to notice other things.

    What many do not understand is the complete and
    total rest those of us who practice Sabbath have
    -- like a weekly vacation in which we worship and
    study without interruption or guilt. Many think that
    it is a hardship, but it is the total opposite. I LOVE
    it and the feasts. They are not burdens but a git
    to look forward to.
     
  18. Abiyah

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    Well, we both worshp Him daily, then, but I can do
    without the extra fat and cholesterol in the pork. I
    am too old for that kind of stuff anyway. :-D

    And if you had known me at the age of 27 and
    before, you would see the miracles He has done in
    my life.
    :-D ! ! ! Tell your in-laws to take care of that mold
    before the health department finds out! A strong
    solution of bleach and a dehumidifier might help.
    Also, if they have electric heat, that may be the
    problem -- too moist. Running a propane heater
    for a few minutes daily in the basement may help a
    lot.

    I don't wear side-locks either, but I do wear tzitzit.
    I only wear a head-covering when I am called up to
    Torah, and I never wear a skirt -- EVER! Wouldn't be
    caught dead in one. :-D
    I would suggest that you do a study on the words
    Law and law in the Apostolic Scriptures. You
    could be very surprised. According to the writers,
    sin is transgression of the Law. Also, our Lord
    taught us that not one jot or tittle would pass from
    the Law until all prophecy is fulfilled and that He
    did not come do destroy the Law but to do it.

    With regard to healthcare workers, caregivers,
    law officers, fire fighters, etc., the Law gives
    provision for them, as do the traditions. Further,
    our Lord taught us that if any tradition went beyond
    the Law, we could ignore it: it is the Law He gave
    that is important.

    God is good, ad He is gracious. He plainly stated
    in Deuteronomy that what He asked us to do was
    not hard. It isn't. It is a joy. :)
     
  19. A_Christian

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    Abiyah & BobRyan:

    The reason that we worship GOD on Sunday is to memorialize the resurrection of Christ Jesus the
    happened on the first day of the week.

    John 20:1 The first day og the week cometh Mary Madalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

    The living Christ later in the evening of that day reveals Himself to His disciples.

    John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, "Peace be with you."

    Eight days later, again on Sunday, Christ reveals Himself to Thomas.

    John 20:26 And after eight days again His disciples were within, and Thomas with them: came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace be unto you."

    In Revelation 1:10 the assended Christ reveals Himself to John on the first day of the week which John calls the Lord's day.

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a graet voice, as of a trumpet.

    We find the the disciples are breaking bread together and Paul is preaching, and a young man
    dies because he falls from a window during the service which is taking place on SUNDAY. However, Paul is used of GOD to heal the man.
    Acts 20:7-12

    And in I Corinthians 1:2 Paul says that offerings are to be collected on Sunday.

    "On the first day of the week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

    Romans 14:5-6 clearly says:

    One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man cosiders every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord...

    In Galations we (Christians) are reminded that we were slaves but are now joint heirs with Christ.

    Galations 4:7-11 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, GOD has made you also an heir. Formerly, when you did not know GOD, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know GOD--rather are known by GOD---how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear I have wasted my efforts on you.

    The Jews were trying to get the Christians to follow Jewish practices. As you can see, this isn't what it is all about....
     
  20. BobRyan

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    I agree. A number of Christians are not "keeping Sunday at all". They are simply attending a worship service during that day in memory of the resurrection of Christ.

    And that addresses Abiyah's opening comments (at least for that one group of Christians).

    correction. If Sunday is the first -- then 8 days later is the 9th. On all my Calendars - that would put the 9th on a Monday.

    Rev 1 does not mention the first day of the week - nor does it indicate that the Lord's day is Sunday.

    As we see here

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a graet voice, as of a trumpet.


    Actually the meeting starts on Sunday - but then goes into Midnight. That means that it either is going into Monday (making Monday a Holy Day??) or it is Sunday evening and the plan for celebrating the resurrection is an all day trip. Instead of staying with the congregation in rest and worship over the first day of the week. Either way - it is a problem.

    Actually it says that EACH person is to lay aside some money by himself (Each ONE) at the first of each week.

    Now the facinating thing is they seldom call Sabbath "the day after the 6th day" or even "the seventh day" rather it goes by its title of honor usually "The Sabbat".

    Suppose the NT church was introducing a new title for the First day - day "one", and suppose that title was "The Lord's Day".. wouldn't this be the perfect place to use it? ESPECIALLY if you are commanding church services and offerings on that day? The fact that the text goes back to the old "day one" nomenclature instead of a title of honor AND the fact that EACH ONE is saving up by himself on the first of each week -- shows a distinct lack of "promotion" for this supposed new holy day.

    Actually it says "one man OBSERVES one day above another while another man OBSERVES every one of the days" that are to be OBSERVED according to the OT LAW.

    Paul concludes in Romans 14 that NO CONDEMNATION is allowed for EITHER practice. BOTH are equally honoring to God according to Romans 14 - (speaking of "OBSERVING" the OT Feast days of observance).

    Indeed the practice that is described in Galations is being CONDEMNED instead of DEFENDED as God-honoring. The practice in Galations is a return to paganism.

    "Some" have proposed that the "paganism" being returned to was "God's ordained form of paganism as defined in the OT" - But Paul is not making such a case in Galations 4. It is an abuse of the text to try to bend Galations 4 back on Romans 14 so that they both describe the same practice.

    Notice that in Galations 4 Paul is not condemning their "PROMOTION" of the days - but their "observance" of them. In other words - he declares that simply to observe them is pagan.

    In Romans 14 Paul declares that BOTH the case of selecting ONE of the observance days and OBSERVING IT above another - is JUST as God Honoring as OBSERVING all of them. None are to be condemned. Ceratainly a true statement when considering the observance of the OT feast days.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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