Father, forgive them

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,517
    Likes Received:
    1
    Luke 23:34 quotes Jesus on the cross as saying, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

    Were these people truly forgiven? To what extent were they forgiven? If they were forgiven, does this mean that they were saved?

    What are your views on this?
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: Jn 17:9

    I think this applies here. IMO, there were many of His children there that unwittingly took part in that awful deed, just as Paul, separated from his mother's womb, persecuted the Church thinking that he was doing service to God.
     
    #2 kyredneck, Mar 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2012
  3. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    You cannot put into context a passage in Luke using an unrelated passage in John where Jesus is praying for His 12.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    363
    I believe that Jesus was praying on their behalf for the act – not to hold the particular act against those who were participants. Those involved did not realize that they were, in accord with God’s plan, crucifying the Messiah (otherwise they would not have done so), but were spiritually blind.

    Were they forgiven for the act? I believe so, but this does not equate to salvation. In fact, I would argue that forgiveness does not equate to salvation. We are not saved because our sins are forgiven – our sins are forgiven because we are saved.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    13 And the lord of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; it may be they will reverence him.
    14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned one with another, saying, This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
    15 And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
    16 He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
    17 But he looked upon them, and said, What then is this that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner?
    18 Every one that falleth on that stone shall be broken to pieces; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
    19 And the scribes and the chief priests sought to lay hands on him in that very hour; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he spake this parable against them. Lu 20

    that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23:35,36

    It's quite obvious there were those who were NOT forgiven for that awful crime.
     
    #5 kyredneck, Mar 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2012
  6. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    The point you are missing is prayer is not always answered in the affirmative. Christ also prayed for the cup to pass Him.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    I refuse to believe that Christ ever asked amiss, or that any of His supplications were ever denied.

    Christ was impeccable.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    He was also 100% human, submissive to the Father. Just because you fail to believe it doesn't make it not true.
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

    There's not a doubt in my mind that those for whom He prayed were forgiven.

    There's not a doubt in my mind that HE never, not once, ever asked anything that was not the will of the Father.

    I suppose this is one humongous difference between you and I.
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, they were forgiven apart from faith in Christ then? That is contrary to the whole of Scripture.
     
  11. Godspeaks2me

    Godspeaks2me
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2012
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree, I have never seen such evidence in the Bible.
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    While we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through..... what, webdog, OUR faith?
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,120
    Likes Received:
    319
    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    HankD​
     
  14. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justification through faith...yup.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    Right. There is no reason one should have any confidence whatever in Christ's intercession with the Father.

    Let's imagine dawg in the company of disciples:

    Jesus: Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    Peter: Lord, I am ready to go . . .

    Dawg: (interrupting) Hold on there, Pete. Now God doesn't always answer His Son in the affirmative! Better make sure all your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed.

    (Peter stares at Dawg, bewildered.)

    Dawg: Oh! Sorry. Better make sure all your jots are tittled.​
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    I actually started to use this very passage, but decided, what's the use? His is a very humanistic view.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
    8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
    10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
    1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, Eph 2

    33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

    7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3

    24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
     
  18. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    Umm... the Garden of Gethsemane account then? how would you explain that KY?

    IF...it were not possible that Jesus ever pray anything outside of the will of the Father... then why would Christ say..."Nevertheless not my will but thine be done" According to your interpretation..it appears that Jesus just made an unintelligible and ignorant statement in that prayer.
     
  19. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    That is precisely what webdog just said..."Under no conditions, whatsoever, is anyone, to have any faith, at any time in the intercessory capacity of Jesus's prayers" I know I just saw him say it....I will post it here:

    "............................................................................................................................................................"

    Did you see that? What a heretic.
     
    #19 HeirofSalvation, Mar 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2012
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the short time here you already picked up on the gross misrepresentations occurring, huh? :D
     

Share This Page

Loading...