Favoring The TR

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Oct 11, 2011.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I generally don't favor the TR variants. But Philip W.Comfort does on occasion prefer TR readings instead of going with WH, or NU. Of course many times all three agree. NU agrees with many TR readings when WH does not. And once in a while WH agrees with TR. So what I will list is when the TR stands alone and yet comfort agrees it has good documentary support.

    I have mentioned Philip W.Comfort's book numerous times. It's called :New Testament Text And Translation Commentary: Commentary on the variant readings of the ancient New Testament manuscripts and how they relate to the major English translations.

    Here are the places I have found where Comfort is in favor of the TR reading and against WH and NU.

    Matthew 12:4
    Matthew 14:24
    John 10:29
    John 13:2a
    Romans 11:31
    Romans 14:21
    1 Corinthians 7:15
    1 Corinthians 14:38
    Galatians 1:3
    Galatians 5:24
    Philemon 6a
    Col. 3:22b
     
    #1 Rippon, Oct 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2011
  2. Rippon

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    In Comfort's book he cites 13 different English Bible translations. I will not cite 7 of them because either they are not used that much these days (ASV,RSV),Perceived as liberal (NRSV), or out of the mainstream Evangelical world i.e.Roman Catholic for the most part (NAB,NJB,NEB,REB).

    Comfort cited the "old TNIV"and the even older 84 NIV (just to let you know the present 2011 NIV didn't exist at the time of his publication).

    In this post I will cite passages in which versions use the TR reading when the TR reading stands alone. Of course most of the time the KJV and NKJV agree with the TR. I will not bother to itemize that fact.

    It's possible I have missed some. But bear with me.

    From the book of Matthew

    11:15 :NASB and NLT
    15:4 : ESV
    15:6a : NASB and TNIV
    17:11b : NLT
    17:21 : NASB,HCSB
    18:11 : NASB,HCSB
    23:5 : NASB,NIV,TNIV
    23:14 : NASB,HCSB
    24:36 : NET
    25:9 : NASB,NIV,TNIV

    From the book of Mark

    2:16b : NASB
    3:14 : NASB,TNIV
    5:41 : ESV
    7:5 : NET
    9:29 : HCSB
    9:44,46 : HCSB
    11:26 : NASB and HCSB
    15:28 : NASB and HCSB

    From the book of Luke

    9:55 : NASB
    14:17 : ESV,TNIV,HCSB,NET
    17:36 : HCSB,NASB
    18:24 : ESV,HCSB
    23:17 : HCSB,NASB

    From the book of John

    5:3b-4 : HCSB,NASB
    17:21 : HCSB

    From the book of Acts

    1:25 : NASB
    3:20 : NASB
    16:13 : HCSB
    8:37 : HCSB and NASB
    9:34 : NET
    11:11 : NIV,TNIV
    11:12 : NASB,HCSB,NET,NIV,TNIV
    24:6-8 : HCSB,NASB
    26:16 : NASB,NLT,HCSB,NET
    28:29 : HCSB,NASB

    From the book of Romans

    2:16b : NIV,TNIV
    11:22 :TNIV
    14:22 : HCSB

    From the book of 1 Corinthians

    7:38 : NASB
    13:3 : ESV,NASB,HCSB

    From the book of 2 Corinthians

    2:1 : NASB
    5:17 : NASB
    12:1 : NLT

    From the book of Galatians

    5:24 : NET

    Ephesians

    5:5a : NASB and NIV

    To be continued ...
     
  3. Rippon

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    Continuing

    Hebrews

    4:2 : NASB,NIV
    9:11 : NASB
    2:18a : NASB,NIV,TNIV


    James

    1:12b : NASB

    1 Peter

    5:11b : ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV

    2 Peter

    2:6b : NASB

    1 John

    3:19 : NIV,TNIV
    4:20 : NLT

    Revelation

    4:11b : HCSB
    8:7a : NIV,NLT
    19:5b : NIV,TNIV,NET
     
  4. Rippon

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    Added :
    1:3,4a :ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV,HCSB,NET
    1:19 : ESV,NIV,TNIV,NLT,HCSB,NET
    4:51 : NASB,NIV
    5:2b : ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV,NLT,HCSB
    10:29 : ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV,NLT,HCSB,NET
    13:2b : ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV,HCSB
    20:23 : ESV,NIV,NLT,HCSB,NET


    Added:
    4:1b : NET
    8:2 : NIV
    8:11b : TNIV
    8:26 : ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV,NLT,NET,HCSB
    8:34a : NET
    10:1 : NIV,TNIV,NLT,NET
    11:17 : NET
    11:31 : NLT
    16:20 : ESV

    Added:

    2:1 : ESV,NASB,NIV,TNIV,HCSB,NET
    4:17b : ESV,NASB,NET
    5:5 : NASB
    7:15 : NASB,NIV,TNIV
    10:13 : TNIV,NLT
    11:29 : NIV
    13:8 : NASB,NIV,TNIV
    15:31a : TNIV,HCSB,NET
    16:19b : NIV,TNIV,NLT,HCSB
    16:24 : ESV,NASB,NIV

    Added :

    8:7 : NIV,HCSB
    12:7a : ESV
    12:9 : ESV,NIV,TNIV,NLT,NET
    12:11 : NLT
     
  5. Phillip

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    'scuse me for saying it, but the listed verses are very few when you consider that entire size of the NT.

    I could make an argument that one bad DNA chain out of thousands could cause cancer, but I don't think that would be the case here.

    I have even heard fundamentalist preachers stating that the KJV has more "Christology" than the new translations. So, you have a book that says Jesus is the Son of God in various ways 20 times and another that says it 23 times. Kind of off the track, but just making a point that most of the decent translations are all quite conservative and still get the gospel of Christ as the only way for salvation.

    I literally heard a Fundamental pastor who said just last weekend that a person cannot get "saved by someone witnessing to them with a 'N'on 'I'nspired 'V'ersion; which he quotes at least three times in every sermon and says aren't we thankful we have the true and perfect Word of God with zero mistakes. The KJV1611!!!!!!!!! Since KJV1611 is wrapped around the cross in the church's logo I would assume he is pro TR. :thumbsup:
     
  6. Rippon

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    I favor the Critical Texts -- not the TR. But there are many more agreements between the WH and NU with the TR than there are differences.

    Believe me,Comfort disagrees with with the TR many times. But the NU, WH and TR are joined at the hip in a surprising number of times. The NU in particular unites with TR readings a bit more than with the WH.


    I know you have explained why you are there --for the sake of your daughter and grandchildren --but that preacher is off his rocker. The trouble is he wields authority and power over so many unsuspecting folks.

    He sounds just like a KJVO preacher I know in the Seoul area --an American. David Cloud is his hero.
     
  7. Phillip

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    You are right about why I attend, but it has been getting to me emotionally and either I am going to wind up having a real argument with my daughter or find a local SBC that I like. You can only take so much of screaming lectures about how everybody is wrong except their little country church. Thankfully, it is a very small church and it seems the only new people are sometimes a soldier coming to our Army Base to take Ammunition School and they just happen to live in the Tennessee/Arkansas areas where the Fundamentals are REALLY Fundamental.

    I have always considered myself quite conservative, but this preacher would consider me far left. He is working on a door to door ministry and training my son-in-law and his brother on scriptures to use (Pulled out of context of course) and they don't seem to have many visitors and if they do they usually don't show up more than once after he starts his KJVO rant.

    My nephew is a SBC pastor and he uses a NKJV, but its not his favorite. He has a motive that I think I have mentioned and that is his church contains a lot of old people who bring their KJV's just out of habit and they can follow right along while at the kids can at least understand his quotes.

    I have heard that 99% of the text is pretty much considered to be both matching and accurate to the originals by scholars who work as translators. These are good Christian people who have no reason to distort the Word of God.

    Last night I read almost all of Paul's letters (after going to church and getting my lecture) from the NIV, the ESV and the KJV and it was amazing how they matched, but the KJV was not as easy to understand until I went back to the new Bibles. I catch this preacher reading the KJV and saying "That word means such and such" and the "such and such" is usually exactly what the NIV says. I know this because I've kept notes of these scriptures.
     
  8. franklinmonroe

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    The variant pair in Matthew 11:15 is between including or not including the Greek verb ἀκούειν ('to hear') in the verse. The KJV/TR has the word coming after "he that hath ears" and before "let him hear" (ἀκουέτω is the same verb in a different form).

    Like the NASB and NLT, the ESV does seem to translate the TR variant (with a footnote) --
    Interestingly, the same Greek constructions are at issue in Matthew 13:9 & 43 where the ESV and the NASB choose to not include the words "to hear".
     
    #8 franklinmonroe, Oct 13, 2011
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  9. JesusFan

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    What would be the reason to NOT translate in same fashion though?
     
  10. franklinmonroe

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    I can only speculate at this point in time, but it seems that in the opinion of those translators there was just enough manuscript or internal evidence to support including "to hear" at Matthew 11:15, while not quite enough for 13:9 & 43. I say that because the ERV (1885), Darby (1890) and the ASV (1901) all did the same: they include "to hear" in Matthew 11 and leave it out in Chapter 13. I am assuming these mostly formal translations are closely following their primary Greek text, although translators may pick and choose what text they prefer at any given verse; that is what this thread is all about. Whiston's Primitive New Testament (1745) translation actually has the resulting renderings reversed! Why? (I don't know)

    Again, closely split evidence may partially explain the diversity among the English translations. Of course the 16th century English translations (Coverdale, Bishops, Geneva, etc) followed the TR by including "to hear" in all three of these verses in Matthew. It seems that about the 20th century mark that many translations began to omit "to hear" (Sawyer 1858, Noyes 1869, Rotherham 1902, Weymouth 1904, etc) although some still were including it (Campbell 1835, Murdock 1851, Godbey 1902, etc). Most versions now omit "to hear" (Goodspeed 1923, Wuest 1961, NIV 1973, etc) but any version strictly following the TR (Young 1863, NKJV 1982, KJ3 2006, etc) will retain it.
     
    #10 franklinmonroe, Oct 14, 2011
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  11. Van

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    I do not understand why people find mystery in the obvious. Matthew 11:15 should read the same as Matthew 13:9 if the goal of concordance was more than meaningless boilerplate.
    I like the NET ending, "had better listen" to capture the imperative. So for me, the answer is that the NASB made a mistake, as did the NLT and the ESV which footnotes the correct text but puts the added words in the body. Backwards.

    The more you study the modern translations, the more you find a lack of concordance due not to scholarship, but to a lack of computer assisted editing for the purpose of concordance.
     
  12. Van

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    With Matthew 15:6 we have the NASB including "or mother" in the main body when it should be footnoted, so yet another failure to translate consistently. What we seem to have is not a preference for the TR rendering but simply a herd mentality to follow the choices of past translations in a somewhat hit or miss fashion.
     
  13. Van

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    As far as Matthew 17:21, Comfort is wrong, both the NASB and HCSB bracket the verse and provide footnotes mentioning that the verse is not found in early manuscripts. Ditto for Matthew 18:11 and 23:14.
     
    #13 Van, Oct 15, 2011
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  14. Van

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    The NASB puts "on their garments" in italics, (Matthew 23:5) indicating an addition for clarity. Thus, while mirroring the TR, it really is not a valid example of using the TR over the CT.
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    I could not discern where the NASB seemed to pull off the CT in Matthew 25:9. So this one seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.
     
  16. franklinmonroe

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    Matthew 11:15 should read the same as Matthew 13:9 in English if the translators accept that the underlying Greek is the same at both verses. But what we seem to be observing is that the NASB translators (and some others) apparently did NOT accept the Greek authenticity of "to hear" at Matthew 13:9. Therefore, concordance of English words is not at issue here.
     
    #16 franklinmonroe, Oct 16, 2011
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  17. Van

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    Hi Fraklinmonroe, do we not find the very same Greek construction in the CT at both locations. And are there not several other locations, i.e. Matthew 13:43, Rev. 2:7, etc. which again have the same construction, all not containing the extraneous "to hear." It is simply a mistake! Look at the CT version of Mark 4:9. "To hear" is in the text in every version, because it is in the CT. Some scribe corrupted the text and added to hear at Matthew 11:15 to make it read like Mark 4:9, Luke 8:8, and Luke 14:35. And then adding to that error the NASB who knew better repeated the error.

    And yes "concordance with English words" is an issue because the same Greek construction should be translated in the same way. If I write in Greek the Word was God, is it ok to translate it in one place the Word was God and in another the Word was a god? Of course not.
     
    #17 Van, Oct 17, 2011
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  18. Rippon

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    So I tallied up the numbers regarding my first several posts. Here is what I found in terms of the various translations agreeing with the TR.You can check and see if I made any miscalculations.

    NASB :44
    HCSB :32
    NIV : 29
    TNIV : 27
    NET : 19
    ESV : 18
    NLT : 16

    The NASB leads the pack in agreeing with the TR. It agrees on almost three times as many occasions as the NLT.
     
  19. Rippon

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    Why then do the KJV,NKJV,Bishop's,Coverdale,Geneva have "to hear"in Mark 4:9? Were they influenced by the CT? :)
     
  20. Rippon

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    That's rather poor example. The NWT is guilty of that,but few others.

    Words have a semantic range --you can't render it the same way each and every time or the wording would be quite unwieldy. At other times a similar word is used instead of monotonously using the very same word. So on some occasions "hate" may be found and at other times "detest" or "abhor" for example.

    Are you against synonyms? :)
     

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