Final written authority?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by NaasPreacher (C4K), Aug 5, 2010.

  1. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    A question for those who believe that God promised to preserve a perfect final authority that His children can hold in their hands.

    What is that final authority to someone who is ministering to a people who do not speak the same language as his native tongue?

    Does he have two different final authorities? Does he tell them has he has one final authority and they have another? Does he tell them that they must accept his final authority?

    Did God break His promise of perfect preservation if those people don't have a translation from the traditional text body?
     
  2. Salty

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    C4K, Very valid question.

    I was told (very seriously) by a missionary to the Germans (who temporally was pastoring our US church in Germany) that the KJV is the authority for English speaking people*, but I never did get an answer what version was for the Germans.

    * I speak American, which is quite different from the Queens English...
     
  3. Mexdeaf

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    I have been told by several that if any Bible was not translated from the same text as the KJV, from the KJV itself, or if it disagreed with the KJV in any way it is a corrupt Bible.

    Which means (in their minds, at least) that about 80% of the world has no Bible- quite a shocker to those pastors and Christians who don't speak English nor have ever heard of the KJV and have trusted the translation that they have used for years.
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Would this mean that God's promise of a perfectly preserved copy of His word was only to English speakers?

    Our own John of Japan is working on the first Japanese New Testament from the traditional text. Do the folks in his church have a final authority until then?
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

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    It is going to take time to think through and answer your questions, which I am certian you already have your own answer and conclusion.

    In 1646 the Reformation stated:

    VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion the Church is finally to appeal unto them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God who have right unto, and interest in, the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.
    WCF 1646

    Is this a false or erroneous statement upheld by the Westminster Divines? Which is also upheld by the LBCF? And if matters of controversy are to be appealed to the orginal languages and not the translation of the same, by what manuscripts are we to appeal to?
     
  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I have no problem with this statement. My problem comes with those who try to say that we have on one 'final authority' in any particular translation.
     
  7. RAdam

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    And to be fair there are many of us who prefer the KJ bible that will absolutely state that there are accurate copies in other languages. I've often stated that some KJ supporters go way too far, and end up hurting their case and, unfortunately, reflecting bad on the rest of us.
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I understand that - but it there is only one authority, and an English speaker is working with, say, Japanese speakers, which Bible is the final authority for that church? Especially since there is not Japanese NT from the traditional text body?

    And there are hundreds of dialects with no Bible. Where is their 'final authority' that God promised?

    I realise that this view is only held by a tiny number of believers. My question is for them, not those who merely hold a strong preference for the beloved KJT of the scriptures.
     
  9. RAdam

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    The idea of a final authority would lead me to believe there was an intermediate authority. But that simply cannot be true. The bible never spoke of a process through which the bible would be refined or would evolve and there would be a "final" authoritative result. The bible itself is the authority, and every scripture was so since the say it was penned under inspiration.
     
  10. robycop3

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    I would hafta say that their FA would be an accurate translation of an eclectic mix of the ancient Hebrew & Greek mss into their language. A translation of a translation loses something in the mix, as no one language will translate 100 % into any other, carrying all the original language's subtleties & nuances into the receptor language. To say their translation must be made from the KJV or any other translation is absurd.

    God has chosen to bless some languages more than others with a long history of reliable translations. But I believe He will eventually have His word in every language and dialect so everyone on earth will have the potential to at least hear it if not read it.
     
  11. John of Japan

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    Actually, it's the first Japanese NT from the traditional text in modern Japanese. The Moto Yaku ("Original Translation") of 1880 was from the KJV with reference to the Greek & Hebrew and Chinese Bibles, but the NT was a lousy translation, as well as being in extremely difficult classical Japanese. For example, for the Lord's supper it had "sake" (Japanese rice wine, powerful stuff) for the Greek oinos. And it's been out of print for well nigh 100 years.

    But your question is valid. What did the Japanese have for a Bible all these years? Every single fundamental missionary in Japan uses the Shinkai Yaku, done from the same text and same methods as the NASV. Otherwise, we don't have a Bible. So in a certain sense it is impossible to be a strict KJVO in Japan.
     
    #11 John of Japan, Aug 5, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2010
  12. TCassidy

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    As you included the Scriptures God Preserved, and Preservation only applies to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and the textforms they represent, my preserved, perfect, final authority would be the Traditional Texts of the Old and New Testament, the Ben Chayyim Masoretic Hebrew Old Testament and the Byzantine Greek New Testament.

    And I would encourage an person, regardless of mother tongue, to respect and use the same. :)
     
  13. Rippon

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    No matter the language they speak -- they must use the Hebrew and Greek of your persuasion.

    Do you respect the CT?
     
  14. TCassidy

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    If we are limiting the choices to that which God preserved, then we are, of Theological necessity, limited to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts/texts.

    Respect? Yes. Prefer. No. :)

    Edited to add: As a Believer how can I not respect them? There is over 95% agreement between all extant manuscripts.That means that the CT is at least 95% the pure word of God. No Christian could disrespect the word of God without also disrespecting the God of the word.
     
    #14 TCassidy, Aug 5, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2010
  15. John of Japan

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    True story: Missionary Joe (not his real name) came to Japan with a strong KJVO position. He latched onto the Bungo Yaku, the Classical Japanese Bible of 1917, having been told it was the KJV of Japan. However, Missionary Bill (not his real name; a friend of mine) was able to show him that the Classical NT was actually from a critical text (Nestle's). :tonofbricks:

    Joe panicked. What should he do? He called his pastor in the homeland. Pastor X told him, "Here's what you do. While you preach from the corrupt Bible, lay your hand on the KJV, and the blessings will then go through the corrupt Japanese Bible." So Joe did that and was content. :flower:
     
  16. Mexdeaf

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    Similar stories could be told by missionaries in many lands. The "OVOnlyism" has wreaked it's havoc in Mexico and caused many to wonder if the Bible they have used for over 50 years is a reliable translation- not because it isn't but because it disagrees with the KJV in some places.
     
  17. John of Japan

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    The Spanish Bible seems to be the most controversial of the mission field debates, with even KJVO folk disagreeing among themselves. Maybe that's because of the great number of missionaries in Latin America (a good thing of course!). We all need to get back to obeying the Great Commission, amen? As soon as I find a command to "defend the Scriptures" I'll do it. But the Word is a sword in Eph. 6 and Heb. 4:12, not a weak item to defend. You just stab someone with a sword, you don't defend a sword! :jesus:

    Jer 23:29--"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" How are we supposed to defend a fire or a hammer?? Just burn something down or bust it up!
     
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    At first glance this would be my belief as well.
     
  19. HankD

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    Mine too if by the Byzantine Text the Scrivener reconstruction is meant, as I believe 1 John 5:7 and Acts 8:37 are apostolic.


    HankD
     
  20. TCassidy

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    That would be two of the very few departures from the Robinson/Pierpont text I would also advocate. :)
     

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