finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 21, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The Bible Answerman radio program has a good series this week with a scholar from England that has written a book on the subject of redemption.

    But on the program today a caller observed that it seems that the passion of Christ - the suffering of Christ paying our debt for us - was "not enough" IF it is really true that INFINITE TORTURE is the payment owed by each sinner.

    By that standard - one INFINITE God could only pay one INFINITE payment - the payment owed by just ONE sinner. In fact the caller asked whether Christ should be in the state of torture-in-death forever.

    But this brings up a good question for those who believe that FINITE sin should require "INFINITE TORTURE" for their family friends and loved ones that do not go to heaven. How do you talk yourself into believing that FINITE beings guilty of FINITE sin - should be punished by INFINITE TORTURE?

    IF God is INFINTE and the punishment demanded of FINITE beings is ALSO INFINITE - Then it stands to reason that God only pays the debt of ONE sinner.

    Others who accept God's Word as it says that "BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 of course would not want to insist on a contradicting doctrine that comes from man-made tradition which states that FINITE sin should be punished by INFINITE TORTURe. For the Matt 10:28 "accepting" view - FINITE SIN incurs the punishment of FINITE torment and Christ suffers for the ACCUMULATED (massively large but finite) debt owed by all mankind.

    So I throw this question out to the group - how do you get yourself to the point of believing that FINITE sin is punished by INFINITE torture?

    (Suggestion: As you promote your view please try to retain the Christian graces).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Mar 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2007
  2. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    Bob,

    If you continue doubting God's Word when He says they shall have no rest day nor night, you may find that you will one day believe His Word.
     
  3. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    By Believing the Word of God
     
  4. Alcott

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    If we are so limited, then our faith, upon which salvation rests, is also 'finite.' Anyway, I've never seen anyone move a mountain, which requires only a tiny bit of faith, said Jesus.

    So-- the question is equally valid: How do you get to the point of believing finite faith results in infinite life?
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Eternal life is not the "just reward" for the faith to accept a free gift. The free gift is FREE.

    But do you also want to argue that the PUNISHMENT is as UNDESERVING as the Free gift??

    Some may be quite comfortable with that --

    I prefer the view that God gives on Matt 10:29 that BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED in Fiery hell rather than SUSTAINED in eternal rebellion, infinite torture - infinite pain and suffering.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    In the text you quote "then ignore" Rev 14:10 we find that the wicked suffer IN THE PRESENCE of the lamb AND of His Holy Angels. We also see in that SAME chapter that the Saints ARE ALSO in the PRESENCE of the Lamb.

    As Jonathan Edwards points out the SAINTS will SEE IT ALL. The torment and suffering of their loved ones takes place IN their presence.

    It is all true!!

    And as Rev 21 points out - AFTER that SECOND DEATH is done - ended and BOTH Body AND SOUL destroyed in that lake of fire - THEN and ONLY THEN will every tear be wiped away for the saints and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE suffering or death!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Darron Steele

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    By taking unrepented sin much more seriously than the quoted post reflects, and by following the Bible text.

    These "finite" sins required the INFINITE God to incarnate as a human being, live in this misery-infested world, and die for those sins.

    In the justice of God, those sins have to be paid for. If anyone wants to spit in God's face, and refuse Jesus Christ's payment, then they, as FINITE human beings, will spend an INFINITE time bearing the punishment for their sins because there is no finite time that they can do it.

    The notion that finite human beings can do what the infinite God can do in just a fraction of the time fails to adequately esteem what Christ did, in my opinion.
     
  8. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    I prefer the view that God gives in Revelation 14:11 (KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.; rather than believe they are burned up into nothingness.

    When people are resurrected, they are resurrected into an incorruptible body, Bob. One that will not burn to ashes, but will as Revelation 14 affirms have no rest day nor night for all eternity.
     
  9. Alcott

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    Do you want to argue that, since finite cause does not equal infinite result, that no one has eternal life?
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    The questions in the OS (opening statement)
    are meaningless. Even if you have an answer,
    the answer also is meaningless. Also somebody
    doesn't seem to understand what 'infinite' means,
    intails, or portends.

    In Eucleadian Geometry, each line segment
    contains an infinite number of points.
    A line segment is a finitely defined geometric
    construct containing an infinte number of points.

    Through each of the infinite points on a line,
    an infinite number of arcs may be drawn.

    The infinity of the number of points on a line
    segment is called (using the first letter of the
    Hebrew alphabet) Aleph-sub-one.
    The infinity of the number of arcs which can be
    drawn through all the infinite points on a line segment
    is called Aleph-sub-two.

    Yes, hardly anybody studies the mathematics
    of transfinites.

    God's infinity is way higher than man's infinity.

    BobRyan: //IF God is INFINTE and the punishment demanded
    of FINITE beings is ALSO INFINITE - Then it stands to reason
    that God only pays the debt of ONE sinner.//

    God payed for the infinite debt of infinite sinners.
    There is a finite number of sinners, so God didn't even
    have to strain Himself.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Sin isn't finite. Sin is a sin against an infinite God and therefore requires infinite punishment. You are mistakenly thinking that sin is punished for sin's sake. It isn't. It is punished for God's sake. Since God is infinitely holy, any sin violates that infinite holiness and the only just punishment is infinite punishment in hell.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    In that case ONE INFINITE payment OWED would be the price paid by one INFINITE God suffering.

    And you are back to at MOST ONE person atoned for --

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Humans capable of INFINITE sin with EACH act of transgression may indeed be guilty of many INFINITIES of torture and in that case ONE Infinite God could not even atone for the MULTIPLE sins of even ONE INFINITE Sinner!

    Thankfully almost no one would go to such extremes in terms of crime and punishment.

    In fact in Luke 12:50-56 God shows that some receive FEW stripes for their many sins while others many -- in the relative payment owed system of God in fiery hell.

    Notice that in the Matt 18 story of forgiveness revoked the UNDESERVED Mercy is in the form of forgiveness - but in the debt owed -- it is EXACT!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    We will all live forever - just not in the same place...

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Bob, you have a seriously deficient view of God, sin, and the atonement. This is so convuluted it is hard to even know where to begin.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    It is actually pretty easy.

    In fact incredibly easy.

    1. People OWE a debt for each sin and Christ PAYS that debt FOR US on the cross. HE is the ATONING Sacrifice "for our sins"

    2. If the debt for EACH sin is infinite torture - then He can only pay for ONE sin of ON person as an INFINTE being.

    IF the debt for EACH FINITE sin is FINITE torture (as we SEE in Matt 18 and Luke 12) - then as an INFINITE God He can pay the debt for ALL SINS of ALL HUMANS in ALL of time.

    There is absolutely nothing complicated about this simple point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    If you offend in one point you are guilty of all. How could you get forgiveness of just one sin with the others still against you, they would make you still guilty. Therefore you must get atonement for all your sins or none at all.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Think about what you just said. If the debt for each sin is infinite torture (which I object to the use of torture since it is not how the Bible describes it), then the debt for two sins is not two infinite tortures. That is illogical infinite cannot be increased. There is no such two infinites (dying for two people or more). Infinite is without limits. Since Christ's death is an infinite payment, he can pay the infinite debt of all sinners and each sinner.

    You see, your misunderstanding is on the nature of infinite debt and infinite payment. As I say, your position is convoluted.
     
    #18 Pastor Larry, Mar 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2007
  19. Andre

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    Despite popular belief, one infinity can indeed be larger than another. For those interested in the technical details, the following material from http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53352.html is provided.

    What is the formula for proving that one infinity can be larger than
    another? The number of fractions between 1 and 1000 should be larger
    than the number of fractions between 1 and 2.

    There are lots of ways to prove one infinity is "larger" than another
    infinity. For instance, consider the infinite sequence (ak):

    (ak) = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8....

    Now consider the infinite sequence (bk):

    (bk) = 2,4,6,8,10....

    Obviously, (ak) is all natural numbers, and (bk) is all even natural
    numbers. They both have an infinite number of terms, but (bk) is also
    a subset of (ak)! In fact (bk) looks to have 1/2 the number of terms
    as (ak). This is called the paradox of infinity and it comes from
    trying to use infinity as a number instead of as an idea. Comparing
    these sequences you would get 2*(infinity) = infinity. And in fact if
    you kept going you could eventually prove c*(infinity) = infinity,
    where c is any number. Looking at 2D points compared to 1D points you
    can get (infinity)^2 = infinity. Keep going in this way and you can
    get (infinity)^n = infinity.

    There do exist different types of infinity. This distinction is sort
    of hard to think about until it's explained. There are enumerable
    infinities and then there are non-countable infinities.

    The sequence of natural numbers is an enumerable infinity; if we sat
    down for an infinite length of time we could count from 1 to infinity.

    The number of points between 0 and 1 on the number line, however, is
    uncountably infinite. There is no way given an infinite length of
    time we could count the points. Where would we start? Pick a point
    and I can find another one closer to 0 than the one you picked. We say
    that uncountable infinite items are much larger than countable
    infinite items. The number of points between 0 and 1 on then number
    line is much greater than the size of the set of the natural numbers.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    It seems to me that the article posted plays with the definition of infinity and is ultimately self-contradictory. Furthermore we are addressing God, not math.
     
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