First Crimea, now Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by church mouse guy, Feb 13, 2015.

  1. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
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    Fierce fighting surged Friday in eastern Ukraine as Russian-backed separatists mounted a major, sustained offensive to capture a strategic railway hub ahead of a weekend cease-fire deadline. At least 25 people were killed across the region, officials reported.

    Clashes appeared only to have increased since a peace agreement was sealed Thursday in the Belarusian capital of Minsk by the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France. German Chancellor Angela Merkel cautiously described the cease-fire that takes effect early Sunday deal as "a glimmer of hope."




    But the pending cease-fire only appeared to spark a last-minute grab for territory that left at least 25 people dead. The government-held railway town of Debaltseve was on the receiving end of dozens of artillery and rocket salvos in the 24-hour period following the Minsk talks, Ukrainian military officials said.



    Military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said Friday that 11 soldiers were killed and 40 wounded over the previous day in eastern Ukraine. Regional authorities loyal to Kiev reported at least seven civilian deaths, while rebels said seven others were killed in artillery attacks on the separatist-held cities of Luhansk and Horlivka.


    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...e-battles-persist-before-cease-fire-deadline/
     
  2. OldRegular

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    Now you will have poncho breathing down your neck. Watch out!
     
  3. church mouse guy

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    Yeah, I opened the door, didn't I? Now he is going to tell me that there is no evidence that Putin has the title to both Crimea and Ukraine. The Germans and the French just got a meeting with Putin and nothing else. You cannot fight bullets with words, can you?

    Germany had best hope that Putin doesn't want East Germany back!
     
  4. OldRegular

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    :thumbs::thumbsup:
     
  5. poncho

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    #5 poncho, Feb 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2015
  6. church mouse guy

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    Pancho, the monkey is busy with Valentine's Day.

    Ole Putin owns the Crimea now and has everything but the notarized title to Ukraine. Next stop Estonia.

    And personally Putin is the richest man in the world. It is amazing how the Russian gestapo KGB Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti works.

    [​IMG]

    KGB Bldg. in Moscow where Vladimir ruled.
     
  7. poncho

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    :laugh: So goes the propaganda anyway. :laugh:

    You make a lot of allegations but haven't proved any of them to be true and accurate so far. Isn't that the mark of a paranoid conspiracy theorist?

    I'm glad you and OR aren't in the White House. You three (monkey included) would already have us at war with Russia, Cuba, Argentina and Iran because of your boundless paranoia and reliance on the western corporate media that has already proven to be the most inaccurate and unreliable source of information there is.

    They've been caught in so many lies and tall tales now that's it's inconceivable that anyone but you three would believe anything they say.

    I guess if you want to believe something bad enough you will. I never did understand why liberals and conservatives insist on putting more faith in their own fears and biases than the facts and evidence.
     
    #7 poncho, Feb 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2015
  8. church mouse guy

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    So do you think that Russia does not own the Crimea now? Do you think that there is someone in the world richer than Putin? Do you think that the gestapo KGB in downtown Moscow is some sort of policemen's benevolent association? Do you think that Merkel did something other than talk?
     
  9. poncho

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    The people of Crimea voted to join Russia. That's a fact relevant to the discussion . But you, OR and the monkey prefer to toss aside that fact to keep feeding your fears and biases and spreading the corporate media's unfounded allegations.

    Yes, Prince Charles wealth if revealed would probably make Putin look like a pauper. Not that it's relevant to the discussion.

    No, no more than I think the growing police state here in U.S. is benevolent. Not that it's relevant to the discussion.

    When Merkel talks Soros' words come out of her mouth. Same as Obama. Not that it's relevant to the discussion.

    Facts and evidence are relevant but you seem to be lacking them so instead of admitting this you'd rather try to spin the debate in another direction and make it about people and personalities instead. It's easier to keep demonizing people than prove the allegations you've made isn't it CMG?

    Now how about backing up your many allegations with proof? You've filled several thread pages with allegations now back them up with something more than fear mongering and demonizations.

    Or keep on using the old "guilt by association" fallacy that is quickly becoming your trademark and show everyone how weak your position and the "MSM" evidence free narrative really is.

    About time you cued the monkey isn't OR? Yes, please by all means show us again how a rational mature individual debates his opponents.
     
    #9 poncho, Feb 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2015
  10. church mouse guy

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    Nonsense on stilts, Pancho--that's what you got.
     
  11. poncho

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    Then prove your allegations. If what you say is true it should be a "cake walk" for you. Let's see your evidence.

    Here's mine . . . http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=92615, http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97472 so far.

    Note to readers, I'm beginning to suspect the monkey has run out of batteries. :laugh:

    While we wait for you to gather your evidence.

    Let’s review some facts. The “Euromaidan” revolt began, ostensibly, because President Viktor Yanukovych, under pressure from Putin, pulled out of the partnership agreement between Ukraine and the EU. So-called experts repeatedly cited in MSM news reports have claimed that Ukrainians turned out en masse, several hundred thousand strong, in Kiev’s Maidan (Independence Square), to defy President Yanukovych and show overwhelming popular support for joining the EU.

    First of all, multiple polls, by Ukrainian polling organizations as well as European and U.S. media, have shown that Ukrainians are, and have been, fairly evenly divided on whether or not to join either the EU or the Moscow-led Customs Union of Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, with many Ukrainians unenthusiastic about either prospect. Even the IFES 2013 survey sponsored by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) showed only 37 percent of Ukrainians indicating support for joining the EU and 33 percent indicating a preference for the Customs Union. Most reasonable people would concede that 37 percent is far from proof of “overwhelming” support by Ukrainians for joining the bankrupt and sinking EU. Undoubtedly, even many Ukrainians who favor closer relations with the EU than with Russia are dubious about trading one corrupt regime for another corrupt one, and jumping from one sinking economy to another that is also sinking.

    Assistant Secretary of State for European and Asian Affairs Victoria Nuland has, of course, been the subject of much controversy, especially regarding her notorious hacked cellphone conversation with U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt that went viral on YouTube on February 6.

    Although her obscene comment regarding the EU — and the diplomatic scandal it caused — seemed to dominate many of the news stories that touched it, the larger story is the extent to which the telephone recording indicates that Nuland, Pyatt, and other U.S. officials and agents were/are managing the Ukraine turmoil from behind the scenes. During the conversation, Nuland is clearly attempting to play the kingmaker, determining who should — or should not — rise in the new Ukrainian government. Aside from her very “undiplomatic” and “unladylike” profanity, her casual slang references to Ukrainian politicians Vitali Klitchko and Arsneiy Yatseniuk as “Klitch” and “Yats,” respectively, reinforce the content of the cellphone conversation, the substance of which is that Nuland and Pyatt view themselves (and the Obama administration) as the puppet masters and the Ukrainian politicians as their sock puppets. In the following excerpts from that phone call, it’s obvious that Nuland and Pyatt see “Yats” as their guy, while “Klitch,” most likely because he is seen as being too independent, is targeted for marginalization. Here are excerpts from the recording:

    Pyatt: I think we're in play. The Klitschko piece is obviously the complicated electron here. Especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister and you've seen some of my notes on the troubles in the marriage right now so we're trying to get a read really fast on where he is on this stuff. But I think your argument to him, which you'll need to make, I think that's the next phone call you want to set up, is exactly the one you made to Yats [Arseniy Yatseniuk]. And I'm glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario. And I'm very glad that he said what he said in response.

    Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.

    Pyatt: Yeah. I guess ... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, another opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

    Nuland: [Breaking in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the ... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in ... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

    And, sure enough, as we reported previously, Arseniy Yatseniuk and a lineup of similarly “acceptable” politicians — nearly all of whom are “former” communists and/or have close ties to Ukraine’s ruling mafia oligarchs, have taken over the new interim government in Kiev. More of the Nuland/Pyatt transcript is available here and is worth a read to understand how the Obama/Kerry State Department worked on multiple levels, coordinating a succession of strategic “atta-boy” visits by U.S. and United Nations officials to decide the outcome of the process that was going to be sold as the decision “of the Ukrainian people.” Among the people Nuland mentions by name as important cogs in the wheel is Jacob “Jake” Sullivan (former CFR and Brookings fellow, and colleague of Strobe Talbott) who now serves as national security advisor to Vice President Joe Biden. Nuland told Pyatt that she had contacted Sullivan, who would get Biden ready for a rush trip to Ukraine to solidify details with an “atta-boy” session with the new leaders.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/17812-ukraine-behind-the-headlines-disinformation-manipulation-propaganda
     
    #11 poncho, Feb 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2015
  12. church mouse guy

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    The monkey is deeply involved with St. Valentine's Day and is not available today.
     
  13. poncho

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    Apparently neither is the evidence you need to prove your allegations.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    Poncho you sound lonesome!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    These four will keep you company whilst you have your monkey shines!
     

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