Five Points

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Dec 16, 2013.

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  1. Van

    Van
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    The Double Election doctrine can be compared with the Arminianism articles of Remonstrance, and with the points of Calvinism (TULIP) using the acronym ELECT.
    The five articles of remonstrance

    1. God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving. (In other words predestination is said to be conditioned by God's foreknowledge of who would respond to the gospel)
    2. Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
    3. Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)
    4. All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.
    5. Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.​
    The five points of Calvinism (TULIP)

    1. That fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)
    2. That God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)
    3. That Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)
    4. That the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)
    5. That those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the Saints) ​
    The five points of Double Election (ELECT)

    1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.
    2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.
    3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.
    4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.
    5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones. ​
    In summary, Calvinists believe we were saved or condemned from all eternity for all eternity, nothing we do in our lifetime alters what God determined before creation. It is a form of religious fatalism. Arminians believe God foresaw who would choose to trust in Christ and elected them in eternity past. They assert that foreknowledge does not predestine the outcome of our freewill choice to accept the gospel or reject the gospel. Thus the opportunity for salvation is available to anyone who believes and God has not foreordained who can believe, making Limited Atonement false doctrine. The Double Election view generally agrees with the Arminian view, salvation is available to those who hear the gospel and choose to trust in Christ, thus total depravity is a false doctrine, and irresistible grace is a false doctrine. Additionally, God chooses folks that trust in Christ, therefore unconditional election is a false doctrine. On the other hand, the Double Election view accepts that once a person has been chosen and spiritually baptized into Christ and indwelt, sealed with a pledge to an inheritance of eternal life, the person’s faith is protected such that they will always love Jesus more than anything else, resulting in perseverance of those set apart.
     
  2. Van

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    Only the ELECT doctrine is consistent with all scripture. Matthew 23:13 tells us of unregenerate men, natural fallen men, who were entering heaven. Either Christ was mistaken or Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine. As for me, I will stick with Christ.
     
  3. Van

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    Only the ELECT doctrine is consistent with all Scripture. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us our individual election was through faith in the truth. Either Paul was mistaken, or Unconditional Election is mistaken doctrine. As for me, I will stick with Paul.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Man, this thread's been open for the last coupla days and van has been talking to himself.

    Lemme say, just so you got somebody talking with you, and not to you, that you got your doctrines all mixed up so bad it don't look like anybody can tell which way is up or down.

    catcha later.
    your friends just closed down the other thread you know.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Noticed both you and Van live in Calif.....maybe yo can get together over coffee......er, then again.....maybe not.:smilewinkgrin:
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    speaking of California, ole Camping died the other night. much as I disliked his arrogance for declaring he knew what the Father deemed to hide from His only begotten Son, I feel sad for the wife. She stood with him through thick and thin. I hope she finds comfort in the Lord.
    Van's double election doctrine seems familiar now that I've mentioned Harold Camping, though I might be wrong.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I generally ignore heretics ..... Camping was one of many. And I sincerely hope his wife is at peace.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    pinoybaptist


    :laugh::laugh:yes indeed...it is uncle Vans story hour as he invents new doctrine on the go:laugh:


    Including Van himself:laugh:
     
  9. Van

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    My doctrines are not mine, they are the doctrines taught in scripture. Posting generalities, i.e. Van is all mixed up, adds nothing. This is all Calvinists offer, disparagement and change of subject.

    Calvinism claims men in their fallen state cannot seek God, yet Jesus says in Matthew 23:13, men were seeking God (actually entering heaven) before they were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine. This verse alone demonstrates to any objective reader, that the T and the I of the TULIP are mistaken doctrines.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, teaching the U of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine.

    1 Peter 2:1 says false teachers were bought, yet were heading for destruction, teaching Christ died for all men, including the unsaved. Thus the L of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine.
     
  10. franklinmonroe

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    Do all "Calvinists" believe this? Do most "Calvinists" believe as you state? Do any "Calvinists" really believe that way? I don't know, you tell me because you seem very confident in speaking for them.

    I'll say this, the Bible teaches that we all are condemned from the start. Do you disagree?

    The Bible teaches that it is only by His grace and mercy that anyone gets reconciliation and redemption. Do you disagree?

    The Bible teaches that God has closed the book on human history (see Revelation). Do you disagree?
     
    #10 franklinmonroe, Dec 17, 2013
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  11. pinoybaptist

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    Oh, Van, Van.
    There are many ways of disparaging the integrity, character, person, or belief of another.
    Just as there are many ways the word "false" can be spoken of, and understood.
    In so short a time, you have gone to 4,000 posts, and very rarely have I engaged you.
    But of late you have been repetitious in calling out Calvinism and the Doctrine of Grace as "false", and the context of how you said those "call-outs" have given the description of the doctrines as "false" the color of fraudulent, deliberately misleading, and generally to be interpreted as to mean other than erroneous, or simply, mistaken.
    You have portrayed those doctrines as if they were the devil's doctrines designed from the pit of hell to deceive those they teach and those who hear and may be ignorant.
    And then you turn around, when answered with equal verve, and point the finger and say we have no concrete rebuttal to offer other than disparaging remarks !!
    I assure you, there are Calvinists on this board and outside of this board who can give your idol, Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, a good argument, point by point, with brotherly love between the lines, and the endeavor to simply sharpen iron with iron, instead of portraying the other as fraudsters, liars, deceivers, in so many words. Let me give you an example of what I mean with my next quote of your current post:

    To say somebody 'CLAIMS' a statement in itself either puts the statement AND the speaker of that statement in a position where others DOUBT his integrity, ESPECIALLY if the one quoting the claim is one who is out to prove the guilt of the other, as in a court of law, when a prosecutor states, "the suspect CLAIMS....."
    On the other hand, an investigator trying to get to the bottom of things can use the same statement without imputing anything to or on the character of the person/persons being investigated.
    In other words, COMING FROM YOU, and your (from the beginning) antipathy and antipathetic attitudes towards Calvinists and Calvinism.....well, you know what I mean.


    actually entering heaven ? reaaaallllllly !!! and what translation, pray tell this devious and ignorant adherent to your much hated Doctrine of Grace, tells you that those men were ACTUALLY ENTERING HEAVEN ? and if not translation, is this what your revered Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, Calvinist muy excelente teaches ?

    Well, I consulted my much beloved King James translation, and 8 other not very much loved translations and none of them has anything that closely relates to 'men actually entering heaven'.

    And then I consulted one of my favorite Calvinists. You and the good Dr. Wallace might have heard of him. His name was John Gill. Here's what he said (edited by me to reflect only on that particular verse):

    And this part of your post casts doubt on the reputation of Dr. Daniel B. Wallace, as an excellent Calvinist, as well as on the reputation of the college in which he is tenured, if you claim him as your sources for your doctrines. But right now, and I say this with sincerity, until I've actually read what Dr. Daniel B. Wallace has to say about the T of Tulip, between you and him, I'd give Dr. Wallace the benefit of a doubt as to soundness of doctrine.

    The U of TULIP is "Unconditional Election". How does this verse negate the Unconditionality of Election ? What conditions were set forth and seen by God in the Thessalonians that cancels "Unconditional" ? Were they more noble than the Bereans ? Were they more repentant than the Ninevites of old ?



    Well, first, are you even sure you are a 'true' teacher ? Are you certain when you point your finger at Calvinists and say they are false teachers of false doctrines three of those fingers aren't crooked and bent to your direction ?

    False teacher doesn't necessarily equate with unelect, because election is not TO TIME, it is to eternity, and redemption does not necessarily mean exposure to correct doctrine and therefore disseminating correct doctrine.

    So the L for Limited Atonement is not at all demolished by the confusion of your doctrine.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    :applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:
     
  13. Van

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    1) Yes, all Calvinists believe we are condemned (not unconditionally chosen) or saved (Unconditionally Chosen) before the foundation of the world, citing Ephesians 1:4 and interpreting the verse as referring to our individual, rather than a corporate election.

    2) Yes, the bible teaches we are condemned for unbelief, at conception. Unless we are saved by grace through faith, we will end up in the lake of fire forever.

    3) Yes, the bible teaches only by His grace through our faith does God put us spiritually in Christ and seals us with the Holy Spirit.

    4) No, the bible does not teach that God has "closed the book on human history." Revelation certainly describes how human history will end, but does not teach or suggest we have no opportunity to obtain salvation through faith, just as John 3:16 says.
     
  14. Van

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    1) Calvinists repeatedly claim that Matthew 23:13 does not say men were entering heaven.

    Lets see, NASB, HCSB, YLT (going in) NKJV, KJV, and on and on all say they were entering. John Gill saying the could not enter simply ignores the text.

    2) I do not claim Dr. Wallace as the source of the "ELECT" doctrines, he would disagree with them. I cite Dr. Wallace concerning the translation of certain verses rewritten by Calvinists claiming grammar expertise. Dr. Wallace is a recognized expert in Greek grammar.
    a) John 6:29 reads work God requires.
    b) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 reads "chosen for salvation"... not chosen to be saved as the Calvinist rewrites read.

    3) Chosen for salvation through faith in the truth presents a conditional election, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    4) The false teaches of 1 Peter 2:1 were bought, even though they were heading for destruction. Therefore the propitiation for the whole world is unlimited, purchasing fallen mankind, even those never saved.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    The kingdom of heaven is different from Heaven where the throne of God is, so you're dead wrong in your claim that men are trying to enter heaven.
    no, John Gill did not ignore the text. YOU added meaning to it where it doesn't say what you said it means.
    Then the next time you mention somebody's name as an authority, better make sure you specify EXACTLY where your quote of him begins and ends. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for either slander or libel.


    John 6:29 says "This is the WORK OF GOD......" not "This is the work that God requires".

    Clean your glasses.
    even your semantics get all screwed up in your trying to paint Calvinists in a bad light.

    no one is chosen for ETERNAL SALVATION through his faith in the truth. But if you must insist, then read the verse in context. what you are doing is lifting verses out of context then you go arms akimbo and say "you see ? I told you so".

    Not every one who is saved eternally will come to faith in Christ in this time world, because not every one who is redeemed and bought with the blood will ever hear a preacher, or come under tutelage of gospel instructors.

    again, go through history and you will find so many doctrinal discrepancies in Christianity, therefore you will find many false teachers, and the "approval" spoken of is not approval unto heaven but approval unto ministry.
    Check out 2 Timothy 2:15.
    THAT is the approval preachers of the word HERE IN TIME needs to display and to seek.

    I have no idea what kind of god you preach who redeems sinners with His Son's precious blood (according to His own declaration) KNOWING FULLY WELL MANY WILL FALL BETWEEN THE CRACKS.

    You statement runs counter, and in defiance of God's words, in Romans 8:29-30

    29 For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified , them he also glorified .

    WHOM IS THE THEM, AND THE THEM IS THE WHOM....NO ONE FALLING BETWEEN THE CRACKS....in Christ's words: NONE is lost, save the son of perdition.....CAPIZ ? ENTIENDE ?
     
    #15 pinoybaptist, Dec 18, 2013
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  16. franklinmonroe

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    Please don't tell me what Calvinists believe; I just want to know what you believe now.

    So, you do not believe that you or I were sinners condemned before God in "Eternity Past" before our Earthly birth? Is that right?

    Do I understand you correctly, that you don't believe that you or I whom have chosen to believe in Christ through faith were counted among the "elect" even before our birth?

    God doesn't deal directly with you or I as an individual? God only deals with you or I corporately?
     
    #16 franklinmonroe, Dec 18, 2013
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  17. Sapper Woody

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    PB, is this a general Calvinist teaching? I am only asking because if I am understanding this right, then it seems to completely negate the need for missions. I'd like some more clarification on this. Might even have to start a new thread on it.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I don't see that....how does that negate a need for missions?
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Another question.....has Christs death on the cross released us from origional sin?
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    SW - as I, and the PB's here have maintained, we are not Calvinists. There are areas in which we differ, so in fairness to the Calvinists on this board,
    this is NOT a general teaching among and of Calvinists.

    From what I understand, they believe that while it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates the elect sinner, the elect needs to be in the presence or an environment where the gospel is being preached, in other words, preaching of the gospel is to them a God ordained means of getting the sinner saved.
    The majority of PB's do not preach 'means'.

    To us, it is the Holy Spirit, and Him only, who decides when, where, and how to quicken His elect child dead in sin and trespasses in time because he was born so by nature, though, after the cross, the elect is a redeemed soul because of Christ's once for all death and resurrection in time.

    However, I do not want to derail this thread to another topic, even if I engage in caustic argumentation with Van as I do not want him to add thread derailment to his charges of insults and disparagement tactics to the Calvinist brethren.

    I would suggest start a thread.
    Though I won't be able to contribute except after 5 pm here in Cali.
     
    #20 pinoybaptist, Dec 19, 2013
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