For By Grace Are Ye Saved

Double post, please go to next post.

 

I am going to try this one more time, for some reason a previous post did not show here.

Ares Man and Old Regular, you are both seeking natural answers to scripture, not spiritual. You cannot understand the scriptures through man's wisdom. This is what Paul spoke of in 1st and 2nd Corinthians.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

A favorite verse of Calvinists is 1 Corinthians 2:14, but it is misused. It must be taken in context with chapter 1. Read 1 Cor 2:14 in context with the verses we have just seen in chapter 1 and the meaning becomes clear.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When Paul says "the natural man" here, he is specifically speaking of the Greeks who sought to understand everything through natural explanations and man's wisdom. To the Greeks, spiritual matters were foolishness (1 Cor 1:23), Paul says that several times of the Greeks in chapter 1. The Jews on the other hand were very spiritual people, however the gospel was a stumblingblock to them, believeing a man saved by keeping the law (vs 23).

In 1 Cor 2:14 it first says the natural man "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God". It is not that they could not hear and understand, they refused to even listen to spiritual arguments. Everything to them must be explained through natural explanations. Spiritual explanations were foolishness to them. And therefore they cannot understand spiritual explanations.

And we see this humanistic belief in the world today, men try to explain how the universe got here though natural processes, they believe the creation account in Genesis foolish. We got this humanistic philosophy from the Greeks and it is still popular today.

And this is exactly what you are doing. You are asking for a natural explanation as to why some men choose against God, and others choose for God. You will never understand spiritual matters through human reasoning and wisdom.

No, you need to hear the scriptures which are spiritual and believe them. They are spiritually discerned (vs 14), and that is the only way to understand them.

 

As I said before, merely stating the fact that some remain in darkness and others come to the light does NOT explain why they do so. I believe that there are other Scriptures that explain the why of both cases.

No. Look at them again.

This verse shows everyone by default.

This is a description of "men" in the previous verse. This is everyone by default.

This verse shows the exception. The reason people are doing truth and coming to the light shows the effectual work of God on their behalf.

 

Since you said this to AresMan, I hope you won't mind me saying to you. Your argument, below, is absurd--now, I want to make sure you know I am saying "your argument" is absurd, not you. The argument is absurd because it is based on a false premise which is gotten from a basic misunderstanding of vocabulary.

You write:

You are placing a meaning on "to know good and evil" that is not there in the Hebrew. First, the verb is a Qal, Active, Infinitive and it means knowledge of, experience with, etc.

It does not, and cannot, mean what you suggest; it cannot mean "and can choose between the two."

So, this is why I am saying your argument is absurd--you imbuing a word with a meaning that you want it to have, rather than to take the word for what it actually means.

Did Adam and Eve know good and evil as a result of the fall. Yes. Why? Because they had experienced (through an act of commission, or sin) evil personally.

This text in no way, shape, or form suggests that this knowledge of good and evil carries the ability to choose. Your statement "...and an choose between the two" is not in the text, it something that is read into the text by you to support your presuppositions. This is eisegesis.

Blessings

The Archangel

 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, where in scripture does it say God cursed man's nature so that he cannot choose between good and evil?

Not one word to that effect is mentioned in the curse God pronounced upon Adam and Eve in the garden (or anywhere else in scripture). That is a man-made doctrine and error.

But that man is able to choose between good and evil is shown many times.

Deut 30:I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This verse is absolutely clear unless a person chooses to ignore it willfully. It says God has set before them life and death, blessing and cursing. And then God urges them to choose life.

It is clearly shown here that man can recognize life and death, blessing and cursing. Man knows both good and evil.

If your doctrine is true, these very words of God would be absurd. You make God to appear as a fool, telling men to choose between good and evil when according to your doctrine, God would know they cannot possibly choose good. What a foolish doctrine.

 

And Old Regular, I have rightly divided the word in both 1st and 2nd Corinthians, it is Calvinism that pulls 1 Cor 2:14 out of context.

1 Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Paul does not here say that the gospel is to the Jews foolishness. The Jews were a spiritual people as are all the decendents of Shem. One can easily observe how religious all peoples of the Middle East are.

No, to the Jews the gospel is a stumblingblock. They believed a person was saved by keeping the law. They are clearly distinguished from the Greeks in 1 Cor 1:23. They are spiritual people.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The Jews were and continue to be a very religious and spiritual people. They were seeking God, Romans 9:32 says so. But they were ignorant of the righteousness that is attained through faith in Christ and sought righteousness through the law. They stumbled at this concept.

The Greeks on the other hand worship man's wisdom and seek to explain everything through natural explanations. Spiritual concepts are foolishness to them.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

And you know this. We can see this everywhere in the world today. Many unsaved people seek to explain everything through so-called science and purely natural explanations. They scoff and ridicule spiritual explanations. Our schools and universities are full of this athiestic, humanistic philosophy. And you know that very well, it is obvious.

But not all unsaved are "natural men". Many unsaved men are very religious and very spiritual, but they are in error. We are fighting a war today against Muslim extremists. These are very religious and spiritual people, in many ways they put Christians to shame in their devotion to their religion. But they are in error.

And this is what Paul is saying. The Greeks sought wisdom. The Greeks are to this day known for this. They were and are known for philosophy. They sought natural explanations for existence. And this philosophy is widespread in the world today, not just by the Greeks, but men everywhere.

Go through 1st and 2nd Corinthians and count how many times the words "wisdom" and "foolishness" are mentioned.

When Paul says "the natural man" in 1 Cor 2:14, he is speaking especially of the Greeks. Corinth was in ancient Greece.

Do you not realize that Paul was speaking to Grecians at Corinth? These people were absolutely familiar with the philosophy and science of Greece.

But this also applies to men everywhere who ascribe to this athiestic and humanistic philosophy.

And Paul is saying the natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit of God because they are foolishness to him. Just as today when a Christian tries to tell of Creation in scripture they are ridiculed and scorned by higher education. You know this.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And because they will not receive the word of God and believe the scriptures, therefore they can have no spiritual discernment. It is the Spirit of God himself who helps us know and understand the scriptures.

So, 1 Cor 2:14 is not speaking of all men. It is speaking of men who ascribe to natural explanations and dismiss the spiritual.

 

Old Regular,

I agree in part with what you said. You are correct that a man can be religious but not be spiritual. And I knew that.

But you still must see that Paul is distinguishing between the Jews and Greeks in these chapters.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Perhaps I should not have said the Jews are spiritual, perhaps I should have said religious. But what I am saying is that the Jews believe in the supernatural. They believed in God, they believe in miracles. They asked Jesus for signs.

Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

Why did Nicodemus believe Jesus was from God? Because of the miracles he performed.

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

So, perhaps it would have been more correct if I said the Jews were religious. They believe in God, they believe in the spiritual.

The Greeks (not all) on the other hand try to understand everything through natural explanations. They originated humanistic philosophy. The believe spiritual matters to be foolish superstition. Now, this is not all Greeks, many Greeks indeed believed in false Gods and were religious. But Paul is speaking of those Greeks who sought to find all answers through human reason.

1 Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

As in verse 22, Paul makes a clear distinction between the Jews and Greeks. He does not say the gospel is foolishness to the Jews, he says it is a stumblingblock.

But to the Greeks he says it is foolishness. So there is a clear distinction made between the Jews and Greeks here. If you overlook this clear distinction Paul makes, you will not understand the passage.

And this clearly explains why in 1 Cor 2:15 the natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit of God, it is foolishness to them.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What is the first thing this verse says about the natural man? It says he "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God." He refuses to accept the spritual, he rejects it.

And why does he reject the spiritual? Because it is foolishness to him. This word foolish and foolishness has been mentioned numerous times in both chapters 1 and 2, you cannot pull this verse out of the context of the passage.

And of course, if a man will not receive and accept the word of God he cannot receive the Holy Spirit, and therefore cannot understand the scriptures.

Go back through chapters 1 and 2 and count how many times Paul mentions foolishness. All of this scripture must be kept within context.

 

Faith gift

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

We didn't wake up one day and have saving faith. It is a gift from God through His word.

This is what Jesus say's about His word.

John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.




The words of Jesus gives us two roads to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be already condemned.

We either are going to be saved or condemned by the road we are on that the Father placed before us.

We can either lean on our own understanding and be on the wide road or trust the Lord and He will direct our path.

 

Now, I partly agree with you and Old Regular here. You are absolutely correct, without the word of God we would not know of Jesus and would have no object of our faith. And the scriptures themselves do inspire faith in a person toward Christ. But the faith itself belongs to the individual.

And this is what Paul says in Romans 10:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul mention being regenerated by the Spirit to believe here? No.

Paul asks how a man can possibly believe in Christ unless he has first "heard" of Christ. Faith comes through hearing the word, it is never said we are regenerated to believe.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You can go on and on about your doctrine that a person is regenerated to believe, it is not shown in scripture and no Calvinist has ever been able to show it in scripture, because it is not there.

But Jesus many times warned people to take heed what they hear or listen to.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

First of all, it makes no sense to warn someone what they should hear unless that person has the ability and control of what they hear. If Calvinism is true, this command is absurd because the unelect cannot possibly hear and believe the word of God.

And notice that Jesus tells those that will hear, that more will be given them in proportion to how well they take heed to his words.

So scripture clearly shows man has the ability to hear God's word, and is accountable for exercising this ability.

 

I don't follow religion, but Christ and His word

It is Jesus word that has the regenerating power, because it is Spirit and they are life.

Without His word we have no Spirit or life in us. If we reject His word we have no life or Spirit.

It is Jesus in us that saves us. Eat of His flesh, drink of His blood

 

Good post, and with that we will close this thread after having reached its 30 page limit.
Please feel free to start another if you so desire.