For God so loved the world

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by King James Bond, Jul 30, 2005.

  1. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Hello everybody,

    Many people seem to have a hard time understanding that God can hate enough to reject people.

    We all know God can love.

    So many use "For God so loved the world" in an attempt to conclude that God loves all people exactly the same head to head and rejects none.

    They do not use the entire passage in context and they forget to conclude it is speaking of "believers".

    He does not love every person head to head and it can be proven. I dont need to prove God has hated millions or billions of people.

    If I can show with Scripture that God has hated just one person, it is proof that "whole world" does not mean every person head to head.

    The question that I would ask is this;

    For what reason did God love Jacob and hate Esau?

    The answer is a simple one........it is His mercy as sovereign grace!

    That is the answer!

    It is because God chose to love one and not the other.

    It is because God made a choice before they were even born.

    Sounds a little hard to take does it? Well it is truth.

    I will post Scripture showing this;

    for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

    it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

    This shows that before they were born and had any time to do anything at all, good or bad.....God planned his favor.

    Most people (even many that profess to be Christians) will say things like; Thats not right, God is righteous!"....."Thats not fair!"....."I will not worship a God that does that!"....."How can God blame people for anything if they are His design?".....As well as all types of other things.

    Scripture continues with;

    What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

    For all you free-willers out there that put so much faith, trust, and confidence in your wills, your hearts, your power, and your own wisdom......look at what it says;

    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

    For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

    So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

    He softens people, and He hardens people!

    Some people have said to me....."your God sounds like a monster"....."well if thats the case, He cant fault us"!

    I would be very careful on calling God a monster if I were you!

    Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

    Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

    I have proven that God hated Esau. The text spoke also of Pharoah.

    This is proof that God does not love all people exactly the same.

    It is truth. Push it away or embrace it!

    "My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. And all of them, since they are mine, belong to you; and you have given them back to me, so they are my glory! John 17:9-10

    May the grace of God grant you all the will to embrace His truth!

    God bless, KJB [​IMG]
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    KJB,
    Good explanation, but had God not sent Jesus to the world, and Jesus' message to the world, to all mankind is that, "if you believe in me you shall have everlasting life", there would have been no atonement for sin that satisfied God the Father, and no man would receive everlasting life. God's love for mankind would not have been demonstrated and those that God loves (those with Faith in him) could not be saved.

    It was God's gift to the world, Jesus, who through atoning for sin, made it possible for the "whosoever's" of John 3:16 to have everlasting life through Faith Alone. It was in God's Love Gift to mankind, Jesus' life, that God demonstrated his love for mankind generally speaking.

    Yes I acknowledge that there are exceptions here as there are in ALL aspects of life. But Generally God loves ALL mankind. And, NO, atonement does not save all mankind, and indeed does not save even one man. All it did was remove the death penalty of sin from mankind...ALL mankind. So Revelation 20:14,15 rings true because there is no death penalty for sinners, only for unbelievers, those whose names are not found in the book of life.
     
  3. whetstone

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    are there any exceptions to this statement?
     
  4. whetstone

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    EXCELLENT post KJB. Well said! [​IMG]
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    KJB,
    What I don't understand is that you take one rather extreme example, dealing with two nations, to tell us that God treats the common man in the same way that he treated Jacob and Esau, the father's of nations.

    Jesus was not sent to the heads of state, he was sent to the common man. And indeed scriptures tell us that the Gospel message was made simple to confound the wise. And that God raises up those who are rulers and kings.

    Calvinism's doctrine of election and or soverignty of God, is based on a false premise by applying the events of Jacob and Esau, and those dealing with the Heads of state, to man in general.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    are there any exceptions to this statement? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what are ya gettin' at?
     
  7. whetstone

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    are there any exceptions to this statement? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what are ya gettin' at? </font>[/QUOTE]You made an absolute statement that was self defeating.

    Just like your other statement 'truth is relative' which means your statement may or may not be true.
     
  8. just-want-peace

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    There are many verses that SEEM to point to predestination; IE the will of man is mostly an illusion!

    There are also many that point to man being the deciding factor in salvation/life; IE man decides whether to become a Christian or no, with minimal or no “interference” from God!

    My problem, is those who choose either aspect of God and claim absolute knowledge of God’s meaning to the exclusion of everything contrary to that view!

    Perhaps I’m just not educated in the dissection of God’s word enough to understand such a philosophy.

    If I see an apparent conflict in my understanding of two “opposing” interpretations of the Word, I have enough sense to acknowledge that there is something lacking in my understanding, not that “I’m right and all other views are wrong”!

    Some people’s egos are so big, though, that they will defend “to the death” their views and, in the process (whether subconsciously or no, I know not) call God a liar when supposedly contradicting scripture is offered!

    I have my personal beliefs concerning these “questionable areas”, but I certainly do not consider myself an authority of my point of view and just discard those scriptures that SEEM to contradict MY PERSONAL BELIEF!

    Those that do so (discard the “contradictory" scripture), do so challenging the authority of God IMNSHO, and are playing with spiritual fire!

    It’s not a disaster or a shame to admit that your knowledge of the scripture is incomplete.

    I can appreciate one holding a staunch view, but to be so dogmatic just shows either your pride, stubbornness, or being educated beyond your intelligence.
     
  9. whetstone

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    Keep in mind that not everyone agrees with your view of what the extremes are. The way most Calvinists see it:

    Hyper Calvinism is on the far left
    Calvinism is in the middle
    Arminianism is on the far right
     
  10. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Wes,Outwest

    You are correct the example is extreme, but nevertheless it is true! Paul gives it to show us that in and of ourselves we are as nothing in regard to salvation.

    It is the perfect, extreme, and true example of what "grace" is.

    People are called to turn to Christ. Repent. God demands that people do.

    The demand does not imply that people are willing or have the capability to do so.

    It is the same as with His laws. God demands that people keep all of His laws. To disobey one law is the same as breaking them all. Those who do not keep all of the law, are cursed.

    Now just because God has demanded all people not to lie it does not imply that all people are not liars and do not willingly lie.

    No one will be made right by keeping the law even though they are commanded to keep it all.

    The natural man rejects God, God's laws, and anything of real truth. The truth sets free and men reject it. Why? Because our hearts are evil.

    The heart of the problem is the problem of the heart.

    If we go to the start of John we will find that the world rejected Jesus Christ.......even His own people. It explains that the ONLY ones in the world that received Him were those born of God.

    He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

    He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

    The only ones that received Him were "born again" , born of God .....they were not born by human will or human decision.

    If it isn't clear enough yet, Jesus clarifies when telling Nicodemus;

    In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

    Nicodemus is baffled just as most people are, but Jesus makes it clear;

    Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit . You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit ."

    There is exists no other option, one MUST be born again. And the Spirit goes as wills, without regard to the will of men.

    Do we need it any clearer? Lets see now;

    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

    It shows here that only "believers" are going to have eternal life. Who are "believers"? Those born again! How were they born again? Was it by human choice or free-will? No...they were born of God.

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    This says "believers" shall have eternal life.


    For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    His Son did not come to condemn, because the entire world already stands condemned.

    Is He going to save the whole world? Lets see;

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

    Only believers are not condemed...who are believers? Those born again and saved by God!

    This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

    Jesus Christ said;

    "My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you. And all of them, since they are mine, belong to you; and you have given them back to me, so they are my glory! John 17:9-10

    I hope all of that is helpful, I am sorry it was so long.

    God bless and regards, KJB
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    are there any exceptions to this statement? </font>[/QUOTE]OK, what are ya gettin' at? </font>[/QUOTE]You made an absolute statement that was self defeating.

    Just like your other statement 'truth is relative' which means your statement may or may not be true.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Take it the way you will, you always do that anyway.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    The text does not say "God COULD have loved the World".

    The text does nto say "God CAN love some people in the world".

    The text does not say "God might have loved all the People in the worlld if He had chosen to"

    The text says "God so LOVED the WORLD that He GAVE... Yes REALLY!"

    This is the model of a loving God engaged in substitutionary atonement NOT asking for "appeasement".

    Yes - really!!

    Another argument John ALSO makes is "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD - yes REALLY!" 1John 4:14.

    Calvinims chokes on these statements about God's mission for the Christ and God's motive of Love.

    John also says "I will draw ALL mankind to Me... Yes Really!" John 12:32.

    And John says that in the same way God sends the Holy Spirit "to CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment...yes Really!" John 16:8

    The note in John 3 is not spoken - but a narrative to ALL readers - to ALL mankind. The Bible is read by both the saved and the unsaved... "yes Really!"

    And of course the PROOF of this so devastating to Calvinism is God ALSO weeping over the case of the Lost whom many Calvinist claim God could not possibly love!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    I will post scriptures showing the Love of God for the lost because this TESTS the conclusion that Calvinism "tries to spin" about God not REALLY loving the World --

    When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

    God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

    Lament over Jerusalem
    God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.
    God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
    ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

    God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!
    Calvinism fails.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Not only does Calvinism try to so-spin Romans 9 as to get God not to even care for the lost (and so no grieving/weeping over those He never works for) -- but it also Argues that God does NOT actually work to save them!!

    Another faulty conclusion of Calvinism as we see below.

    Revew: God's Will for mankind…. Yes Really!

    The SCOPE is Global - the WORLD that was destroyed included ALL. The wicked are accusing God of not being able to DESTORY the SAME world He ALREADY destroyed ONCE by a flood. The DESTRUCTION and LOSS of life IS NOT LIMITED to the safety/fate of the ALREADY SAVED. The future destruction is GLOBAL - and will affect ALL left on the PLANET.
    The focus is this great list of UNGODLY men that will be destroyed IF God simply shows up on the spot - at that moment and the UNGODLY have no more chance to TURN to God and BE saved. This is again - the obvious part. The text is NOT concerned that the ALREADY SAVED require some delay - but the CURRENTLY LOST need MORE TIME because as it is now - they are already TOAST so he delays.
    In this case the "YOU" that is mentioned ARE among those that USED to be LOST but have been BENEFITED by the DELAY already so far. The texts points to the fact that GOD HIMSELF anticipates that MORE of the LOST to BENEFIT by MORE delay since that is the REASON HE GIVES for the DELAY. (Or more SEAMING delay).

    God's WILL for mankind is abundantly clear here - and those who reject this truth about God must find a way to "limit the atonement" AND "limit this statement on His will".
    -------------------------------------------

    God expends EFFORT to SAVE them - HE SENDS them messages of warning and salvation. At GREAT cost and sacrifice.
    Lament over Jerusalem
    ---------------------------------------

    God's PURPOSE FOR THEM is salvation – but those who are ultimately lost reject God’s Purpose for THEM .

    Even so - God shows Himself as WORKING for their salvation AND YET they turn.
    =============================================================================

    God WORKS to win the LOST that HE KNOWS to be those who would ultimately reject the choice for life!!

    Parable of the Landowner
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Finally some have so spun this Calvinist idea that "God did NOT so love the WORLD He only loves the FEW of Matt 7" that they have God as the AUTHOR of the sin of Satan and mankind.

    But the Bible does not agree with that kind of Calvinism "either".

    God does not orchestrate the wicked to rebel against Him. God is NOT the author of SIN!

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

    &lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

    Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Paul will learn in a minute that God does not actually care for those that are not coming to Christ and neither should he (at least that is what our Calvinist bretheren would have us hope for).


    Paul will learn later in the chapter that God never actually does all that work for those He cares nothing for. Paul will need to pipe down on this point since it appears that God's sovereignly chosen "Holy Nation" and "Royal priesthood" idea did not work. (At least that seems to be what our Calvinist brethren would have us believe).
    Really good save on Paul's part for the Arminian idea - but utter failure for Calvinists - Since Calvinist presume that there are no changes - God's sovereign predestined will is being unfolded in history right on schedule. No failures, [no changes to the arbitrary selection process of election.

    By this statement above - that would mean that spiritual Jews are the only ones God was EVER concerned about from the Start. By that logic then (since this still continues to be the case after the cross) then there would be NO CHANGE from the OT to NT system! Given the Calvinist model - this is simply THE system as given by God - "working as designed" so "no change needed" at the cross. (Unless of course Calvinists want to argue that God was designing the failure of his "Chosen" even though they are the "children of the promise" from day one)!!

    So how does the Arminian view fare by comparison in this case? Very well indeed since The Arminian view anticipates/allows "changes" based on the failure of God's own elect/chosen/established church dues to free will. Adam and Eve - failed, and there was "a change" to what God had sovereignly started.

    Then Israel (the Hebrew nation church sovereignly started by God) "failed" and there was "another change". Yet it is the "faithful" - those that choose belief in God and faith in His promises that remain in all the systems.
    Really good example of foreknowledge here - but a real Calvinist problem since God willed Sarah to have a child and was apparently ALSO willing Sarah to laugh at God over it at the time. Obviously Sarah did NOT of her own free will choose such a thing in the model of Calvinism - since she never had free will to begin with (according to Calvin). At each turn so far - Calvinism is frustrated by the points highlighted.

    Good example of God knowing the future. Although I am sure some Calvinists would point this out as God arbitrarily picking Jacob without any reference to the actual choices for obedience vs rebellion in the two men. However the text itself only deals with relationship between the two brothers - not good vs evil or love-vs-hate. The mother is told which Son will be dominant - which one will have the blessing.

    13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    Interesting quote of Malachi AFTER both Jacob and Esau were dead and the history of Rebellion was fully manifest in Esau's descendants (and referenced in that chapter).

    Would have worked MUCH better for Calvinism if that quote had come from something said before the twins were born, as if God has ALREADY decided to hate Esau arbitrarily (instead of not wishing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance). But that is not the source of the quote.

    Instead of quoting a pre-birth event for Esau in the book of Genesis - Paul is speaking of the case in Malachi regarding the DESCENDANTS of Esau and Jacob - EDOM and Israel. He shows who each of them has played out their own rebellion or obedience toward God - and then how that has translated into their history. Rather than a pre-birth condemnation of Esau - this is a post-Nation evaluation of the History of two nations in Malachi 1:1-5

    Paul appeals to the nature of the fact that God showed past-tense his actions toward the descendants of Esau who were in constant rebellion - and the descendants of Jacob.

    And as Paul “begins” the letter to the Romans – he points out that God does this “without partiality” of ONE instead of ANOTHER. (the “very thing” that Calvinists would accuse God of doing).

    So it “depends on God who HAS mercy” indeed who “is NOT willing that ANY should Perish” and fortunately God “is not partial” – but rather – is just and fair in salvation towards ALL.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Bob,

    You just just start posting links to this stuff. You are taking up a lot of space reposting the same stuff over and over again. It doesn't get any more true, which is beside the point, but save the space and just post a link to it. That will help on bandwidth.
     
  19. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Just-want-peace,

    Scripture does point to predestination...that is why it seems that it does!

    Show me where man is the deciding factor in salvation with no interference from God.

    There may be opposing "perceptions" in what people hold as true.....but truth is truth no matter what people perceive.

    The Word of God works on all people.....it is like a fire always at work doing exactly what it is intended to do.

    The Word of God does not come back void of its purpose. Never! It is always at work!

    The Word of God is like a fire in a furnace.

    All people by nature are hardened to the truth.

    Some people are like candles and the fire from the furnace melts them when they hear it.

    These are the ones that melt and see there is NOTHING in them that is good...these are the ones that understand that if it was not for the sole mercy of God pulling them to Him with power...they would have never chose to come.

    These are the ones that say "Only God is good".

    These are the people that call out "have mercy on me a worthless wretched sinner"!

    These are the people that have been knocked down of all self pride and self-righteousness.

    They have been humbled before God!

    These are the people that DENY themselves before Jesus Christ!

    These are the people that have died to themselves. As far as they are concerned they were dead and are dead, it is Jesus Christ that lives in them!

    It is these people that go away justified. It is these people that have been made to know that even their calling out for mercy was inspired by the grace of God.

    For we dont even know how to pray properly.....but the Spirit prays for us.

    And then there are the others....these are the ones that hear the Word of God and it is still like a fire in a furnace.

    The difference is these people are not being softened by the word of God like they are candles. These people are not made of wax, but of clay.

    They are subject to the same furnace fire but get harder and harder as clay is supposed to do.

    These are the people that will not bend nor give in.

    These are the people that have not been brought to nothing......they consider themselves wise, smart, and with good hearts.

    These are the people that like to keep credit to themselves and their wise choices in having so much wisdom and such a wonderful nature to choose the right path.

    These are the people on one hand claim God has saved them, while on the other hand say God has no power to save any unless they come.

    So they have now determined God is not capable of saving sinful men if sinful men do not come to Him.

    These are the people who put on a form of godliness, but deny the very power of God that saves.

    These are the people that are full of pride and have not melted before God.

    They hear that God shows mercy to people by His own sovereign will even though those people were undeserving of mercy.........this makes them cringe and they hate it and God!

    These are the people that one day want to stand before God and boast about their good choices!

    They want to say "we are saved because we chose you"! We are deserving because we chose correctly!

    To these people grace is not even grace.

    They work and work and work in their feeble minds in attempts to say they had to do something....anything at all.....one little itsy bitsy thing of their own power to merit salvation.

    It is here that they hold on to "human choice and human will" as the basis for their salvation.

    It happens to be called "pride" and "self-righteousness".

    I can assure you that NO ONE will boast of anything in Heaven other than God.

    For he that wishes to boast should boast ONLY of what the LORD has done!

    I hope you are made to see the difference.

    God bless and regards, KJB
     
  20. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Pastor Larry,

    All I can say is I concur with you on your point!

    I am kind of new here on the forums.

    I tried to start a new topic. Was kind of hoping it was not going to happen again.

    I am not sure, but I think it is a diversion tactic used to keep people off of concentration.

    I would rather have the link not to use! LOL

    "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

    God bless Pastor Larry
     

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