For those Curious about Smith Wigglesworth and other early revivalists

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SpiritualMadMan, Aug 24, 2004.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
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  2. MEE

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    Gee SMM, I can't get this file to open. Can you post it in a different way?

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  3. SpiritualMadMan

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    You have to have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed...

    Right-Click on the Link and select open in new windows or you can download it... (Internet Explorer)

    If you have Active-X disabled you will get a blank screen with a 'place-holder' in the upper right hand corner...

    You have to let this Active-X run to get Adobe to come up in the Internet Explorer Window...

    My systems are all set to 'prompt' me so I can allow the Script to run only when I want to...

    If your Active-X scripts are disbaled without prompting you, you won't know what is going on...

    Let me know what I can do to help...

    It's not my file. So, I can't change it's format...

    But, I may be able to help you get it to work on your system...

    Mike D.
     
  4. MEE

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    SMM, I did get that to open. I just didn't wait long enough. I put it in favorites, until I can get time to read it later.

    We've been trying to get the barns full, of hay, for the winter. Horses do need to eat! :cool:

    Hope to read it and will possibly comment later.

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  5. SpiritualMadMan

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    So, you are a horse person?

    Are you Western or English?

    What kind(s) of horses?

    My mom had a 16-3 Tennesse Walker I used to ride Western like a cow pony. [​IMG]

    Want to start a 'horses anyone' thread over on the 'general' forum?
     
  6. MEE

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    **Sure, maybe I could learn something more about them. :D

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  7. SpiritualMadMan

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  8. Lorelei

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    I have been doing some research about the early revivalists and I have been wondering something.

    Why do Pentecostals seem to teach today that the gifts of the Spirit have been around since the day of Pentecost when the early revivalists were teaching that their experiences were "new", and part of what they called the "latter rain" that was a "renewal" of the outpouring of the Spirit in preparation for the Lord's imminent return? I have debated the cessation of the spiritual gifts with many Pentecostals (several on this very board) and they proclaim that the gifts have never ceased. Now I find out that the founders of the very doctrines these people follow never taught such a thing (probably because it was obvious that until that time the gifts had ceased). Even Smith Wigglesworth said:

    So why do Pentecostals today reject the idea that the gifts had ceased until the birth of Pentecostalism? Those who started this "new" religion obviouly did not.

    ~Lorelei
     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

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    Lorelei,

    The doctrines of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was lost to the church...

    Not sure if things ever really faded out...

    Some say the dark ages...

    Some, say there weren't needed any more...

    "Religion" was pretty dead and getting deader. More institutionalized instead of being an organism of life...

    These are, admittedly, generalities...

    I am convinced of the truth of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...

    But, it is not the end all be all of my Spiritual Life... I am a Blood-Bought Believer First...

    (After all, can't be *really* Spirit-Filled if you aren't Blood Washed.)

    We have seen God restore various 'lost' truth over the years. Whether it was Martin Luther, or Finny or Spurgeon many of the doctrines Baptist believe were 'lost' for almost as long as Pentecost..

    So, I am not 'worried' that they 'seemed' to cease for a time...

    Depending upon one's prior upbringing the Scriptures adequately support either case...

    I can just as easily write a case for 'Eternal Security' as I can for the Armenian view...

    Though I am convinced that there is a balance between either extreme version of the teachings...

    But, I find it much more difficult to write against the continuance of the Gifts of the Spirit than I do for...

    But, that is a rather lengthy and heated debate. [​IMG]

    The utmost issue is if a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior...

    As a Pentecostal I don't believe the Gifts and infilling ever completely died out or ceased...

    I believe they were 'out of vogue' with the religious authorities during the dark ages, for sure...

    A lack of documentary evidence can say either it was completely out of use and therefore not mentioned...

    Or, it was so normal that no one thought to write about except, as in the case of the Corinthians, to correct excesses.

    The fact that the church has always had it's share of, as one poster put it, Humans and Vulcans, means that when the 'Vulcans' were in charge there could be no Emotions in evidence and any Spiritual Gifting would invariably result in an emotional response... And, censure.

    And, I suspect that there are some rather gifted Baptists who walk in Spiritual Gifts without knowing it simply because they are open to God's Presence in some areas...

    While my Pentecostal upbringing teaches that in every case the initial in-filling of the Holy Spirit is 'proven' by speaking in personal tongues...

    There are enough instances were it can not be unequivocally proven that tongues were in fact evidenced...

    This, IMHO, gives God some 'elbow room' (as if He ever needed any) to act and move Spiritually in a Persons life who is open to, say, healing. But, not tongues...

    Who's to say that some of the insights Charles Stanley or Chuck Swindoll have received weren't a Word of Wisdom or a Word of Knowledge..

    So, no, I don't think the Gifts ever ceased... But, I do believe that Tongues and an overt manifestation and acknowledgment went underground...

    Can you imagine the danger in having a typical Pentecostal meeting during a time of persecution? :D

    Talk about giving up one's position! Ouch!
     
  10. MEE

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  11. DHK

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    That's a joke.
    No doctrine has ever been "lost" to the church.

    Jesus promised:
    Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Jude adomonished:
    Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    No doctrine was ever lost. Doctrines were corrupted by the Catholic Church and by cults, but that never affected the true believers down throughout the ages. Don't be deceived into thinking that the Catholic Church has been the custodian of the "Truth" throughout the centuries. It has not. It has been a channel of doctrinal heresy.
    God's truth has always been preserved through every generation by believers who love the truth of the Word of God and obey it. This doctrine of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," as taught by Charismatics today was never lost because it never was. Period. It was invented around the beginning of the 20th century. It is a man-made doctrine. The baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking of tongues was not invented until the beginning of the 20th century. It is an invented modern day doctrine, unknown before this time. It is not a Biblical doctrine, and thus never lost--just invented.
    DHK
     
  12. Lorelei

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    DHK said it well, no doctrine has ever been "lost" in the church.

    The Bible is clear, these things were supposed to cease, it never speaks of them being "lost" or "hidden away" or going "underground" or ever coming back again after having faded to begin with.

    That is a serious issue that a person who believes this doctrine needs to address. The fact that each and every founder of the Pentecostal movement referred to this as a renewal, as something new, a different way, proves that up until their time, what they were doing was unheard of in any church. Not even they had any examples to compare it to, nor did they expect to! There is no scriptural teaching to back up the resurgance of such activity.

    Paul doesn't say they will be hidden for a time, they will be locked away for awhile, or lost to the church until they are revived. He says they will cease, be stilled, and pass away.

    My PC Study Bible defines these words as follows:

    cease entirely idle

    stilled restrain, quit desist, come to an end

    pass away to be entirely idle

    Not one passage in Scripture claims that this will only happen for a time, especially for the length of time in which they did cease. The wording used in the Scripture confirms that when they do cease (as they have) they will cease completely (entirely idle, come to an end).

    In fact, the Bible tells us "when" they will be cease. They will cease when and only when that which is perfect is come. They are no longer necessary because they were done away with when we received that which is perfect, the Word of God.

    ~Lorelei
     
  13. SpiritualMadMan

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    I answered in the honesty and integrity of my heart before God...

    Putting a lot of Grace and 'wiggle room' in my post...

    If you want to make a fight of it take it to Jesus...

    One thing I would ask of you though...

    What is that 'Perfect' event that has occurred that says they ceased?

    You who deny The Gift of Healing or the calling of the elders for prayer... You who have NO HOPE but inadequate and insufficient human medical knowledge...

    Go ahead and make the funeral arrangements when a dear friend or relative gets cancer... because God doesn't heal anymore... But the plot settle the estate... Write them off...

    Are you so sure of your human training and wisdom that you think you can solve all the problems and answer all the questions with out the counsel of the Holy Spirit in a Word of Wisdom or a Word of Knowledge...

    Go ahead tell God he doesn't do miracles anymore and then dare to drive your car on the Interstate...

    Honestly, you drink in God's Blessings and Bounty not even knowing you are doing so then stick God in the eye and tell Him it wasn't you God... It was circumstance... or a 'spotaneous remission... Or, I thought of that myself...

    Sounds a bit vain and arrogant to me to believe that we don't need the Power of the Holy Spirit today, of all days...

    You guys and gals would slap a feast out of the hands of a friend wouldn't you?
     
  14. Lorelei

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    SMM,

    The that which is perfect is the completed Word of God. The spiritual gifts were given to help the New Testament Church understand the New Covenant of grace. Once those who were gifted with this special knowledge and wisdom put that information into words, the gifts began to cease. Once the NT as we know it today was compiled, the purpose for the gifts ceased. We no longer need to be given a word of wisdom, all the wisdom that we need can be found in the Complete Word of God.

    Those who believe the gifts have ceased do not believe the Power of the Spirit has ceased nor do they believe that God can not heal. They do, however believe that God does not choose to do that any longer through the use of man gifted with these special abilities. This has been confirmed with the cessation of these gifts throughout the history of the church.

    I do not want to fight, what I want is to expose the truth. The Bible says that love rejoices with the truth and so I feel it is loving to share these truths with others. I also posted with honesty and integrity and I would hope that you would realize that. Do we have to agree in doctrine in order to be properly motivated to share our beliefs?

    You brought up the early revivalists and I had to respond to that. I too, used to think that the gifts were still in existance, and it was not until I realized that Pentecostalism was a new religion in which the founders did not teach that thier gifts had been in existance since the birth of the church that I realized I was wrong. I found out that they were teaching that what they were experiencing was "new" or a "renewal" of the NT church, but not that the gifts have ALWAYS existed. I began searching the Scripture and found that the gifts had indeed ceased, but I was still afraid to "say" it for fear I would be blaspheming the Spirit. Then I read a book called "Fire From Heaven" by Harvey Cox. When I read what some of the Pentecostal founders said and believed I could not believe it! I then began to research what they said, what they wrote and I then began to see the truth. These people were seeking something and they found something but that something was not Scritpural. If you study the early revivalists you will see that they never taught that this was the way things always had been. You even admit that by stating some of thier opinions...that these doctrines had been "lost." The problem with that belief is that it can not be backed up by Scripture. To then change your mind and say they were always in existance can not be backed up with History. You are now left with one choice. Continue to believe in it because you want to, or realize that this is a man-made religion and a fairly new one at that.

    Those are the facts. Can you prove them wrong?

    ~Lorelei
     
  15. SpiritualMadMan

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    I need to apologise for my outburst...

    I am still feeling the loss of a friend from work who died last week from brain cancer...

    Took him in 8 weeks...

    I almost lost another friend to lung cancer...

    I am not a Faith Healer... In fact I remain amazed when God answers...

    In the one firends case I finally cajoled him into letting me pray for him... Don't get me wrong the whole church was praying for him...

    But, my love for my friend 'required' that I pray for him...

    I prayed for him from a depth of heart that was far beyond me. With tears, too.

    When he went in for surgery they expected to to take all of one lung and a good part of the other...

    But, when they got in they only needed to take a small part of one lung...

    I say this to say that I really wanted to also pray for my Baptist Friend. But, he and the rest of the Baptist were so afraid of this tiny Pentecostal that I was asked not to...

    I can not say unequivocably that God would have answered my prayer in the affirmative...

    But, the depth of heart I felt when considering it makes me believe that that the possibility existed.

    They just accepted the doctors judgement and wrote my friend off... Didn't try themselves... And prevented me from trying on his behalf...

    And, that hurts and the hurt makes me angry...

    I hope you'll understand?
     
  16. Lorelei

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    MEE,

    I know you post that page alot but there are several problems with the content in it. To say that a person believed in or spoke in tonuges does not prove that the gifts as given in the book of acts have always existed. This link shows nothing of what they actually taught that this meant, it makes no mention of what other doctrines they taught, nothing to show me that simply because a person said something about the Holy Spirit or tongues, means they were always in existance.

    The fact that those who started the Pentecostal movement did not at the time believe the gifts had always existed proves to me that they did not.

    In fact, this page links back to the United Pentecostal Church. Thier attempt to say the gifts have always been in existance contradicts their earlier teachings to the contrary. It appears to me that they are trying to "change their mind" simply because they know that thier own personal history proves the gifts had indeed ceased.

    The United Pentecostal Church says on thier webstie:

    Charles Parham was the founder of that movement and he was the first person to EVER teach that speaking in tongues was the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. One of his pupils William Seymour led the Azusa Street Revival. Seymore, like Parham taught that this pentecostal experience was part of the "latter rain" in which God was bringing the Pentecostal power "back" to the church. None of these people ever beleived that these gifts had been in existance since the times of the NT church.

    You can find a full explanation and excerpts from thier own writings at this site

    The History of Pentecostalism

    So why then, is the site you linked to trying to prove what it's own founders never taught?

    ~Lorelei
     
  17. SpiritualMadMan

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    Baptists are fairly new, too... [​IMG]

    Given the amount of time the 'Church of Rome' had things occulted...

    Jesus is the Completed Word of God... Not the written text we call a Bible...

    In my view that which is perfect is The Heavenly Realm ruled by Jesus Christ Himself...

    But, I am really too senstive about things right now to be as civil as I ought...
     
  18. Lorelei

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    SMM,

    I do understand, believe me I do. My husband (a former pentecostal) had to deal with what you are experiencing when my daughter was born with Down Syndrome and a congential heart defect that required her to undergo open heart surgery at the age of 2 1/2 months. He found out that it was not his lack of faith that caused her to be that way, but it took true Faith to trust in God through that time. No amount of "faith" can make God change his mind. Faith has no power, only the one we have faith in.

    What we forget is that God has promised us peace and that He has promised us joy and he has promised to heal our spirits. If these people are christians they are in a better place. The flesh and this life here on earth offered them nothing. Do you believe the words of Paul, that to be with Christ is far better? We need to quit believing the lie of the world, that our physical well being and a long life on the earth is the most important things! Sure, we want to stay healthy, but we also have to take responsibility for our health. I can hardly blame God for getting cancer if I am a smoker or I can hardly blame God for diabetes if I eat an unhealthy high sugar diet. And if God takes me home, whether from my own poor choices or due to no fault of my own, I want you all to rejoice, for being with Christ IS the better thing!

    Now is not the time for me to saying these things. You are emotionally attached and mourning someone you love. I will pray for God to use this time to teach you his love and compassion. I pray that you will read His Word to find the comfort He has to offer. He promised us that He has given us all that we need for life and godliness, may He comfort you through this time.

    God Bless

    ~Lorelei
     
  19. MEE

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    SMM, not need to apologize! You have a right to express your feelings.

    BTW, how did you like the research, in the link, that I provided? Great wasn't it!

    The baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, still exists!


    PROOF:
    Acts 2:39) For the promise (Holy Ghost/Spirit) is unto you, (Jews) and to your children, and to all that are afar off, (everyone) even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Isn't God still calling?

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  20. SpiritualMadMan

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    Lorelie,

    Praying for the sick is not something I *ever* do on my own...

    When it comes to public displays of spiritual prowess I am 'shy' to the Nth degree...

    No, usually I have to be 'strongly encouraged' by God's Spirit...

    I am painfully aware of my miniscule Faith...

    Hence, I usually don't act usless I am reasonably convinced that God is leading and therefore going to answer.

    Still, as an emotional Pentecostal, I still get it wrong. [​IMG]

    The current crop of 'Faith Teachers heap guilt upon guilt upon the Body of Christ...

    That is way I rejoiced when the "Swiss Cheese Faith" analogy 'came to me'...

    We need each other, desperately...

    Encourage, build up, cover one another's lack, hold one another accountable...

    The stable ones keep us Emotional Pentecostal 'calm' (well we can hope can't we? :D )...

    And, we Penetecostals can (try) to stir up faith in our quieter Brothers and Sisters.

    As for guilt... I don't accept guilt unless there is reason to feel guilty...

    For example: I was awakened at 2 or 3 in the morning with a *very* clear call to prayer for a *very* specific need... It was very clear...

    But, knowing I had to get up in a nother hour or two I put the Holy Spirit off...

    The baby I was awakened to pray for died later that week...

    In such a case it is hard not to feel somewhat guilty... Still... His Grace is sufficient...

    As a parent... I am quite frustrated at the times I can pray for others successfully... Yet, seem totally powerless in the case of my own family...

    That is why I am so exasperated with the current crop of Faith Teachers because they make it very hard to ask for or offer to help another believer in areas or times of weakness...

    Talk about a recipe for disaster?!
     

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