For whom did Christ die?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Jun 21, 2003.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Thought that I would get some RC take on a little Puritan logic.


    FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?
    John Owen

    The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

    1. All the sins of all men.
    2. All the sins of some men, or
    3. Some of the sins of all men.

    In which case it may be said:

    1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

    2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

    3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
    You answer, "Because of unbelief."

    I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
     
  2. Carson Weber

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    FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

    The Bible maintains that there is a sense in which Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world," and 1 John 2:2 states that Christ "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 Timothy 4:10 describes God as "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." These passages, as well as the official teaching of the Church, require the Catholic to affirm that Christ died to atone for all men.

    St. Thomas Aquinas stated, "Christ's passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.'"

    This is not to say there is no sense in which limitation may be ascribed to the atonement. While the grace it provided is sufficient to pay for the sins of all men, this grace is not made efficacious (put into effect) in the case of everyone. One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited. This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell.

    The difference between the atonement's sufficiency and its efficiency accounts for Paul's statement that God is "the Savior of all men, especially those who believe" (1 Tim 4:10). God is the Savior of all men because he arranged a sacrifice sufficient for all men. He is the Savior of those who believe in a special and superior sense because these have the sacrifice made efficacious for them. According to Aquinas, "Christ is the propitiation for our sins, efficaciously for some, but sufficiently for all, because the price of his is sufficient for the salvation of all; but it has its effect only in the elect."

    A Catholic also may say that, in going to the cross, Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but he did not intend to make salvation actual for all men - otherwise we would have to say that Christ went to the cross intending that all men would end up in heaven. This is clearly not the case. A Catholic therefore may say that the atonement is limited in efficacy, if not in sufficiency, and that God intended it to be this way. While a Catholic could not say that the atonement was limited in that it was made only for the elect, he could say that the atonement was limited in that God only intended it to be efficacious for the elect (although he intended it to be sufficient for all).
     
  3. Ps104_33

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    Lets say that two men are presented with the gospel. One man accepts and becomes a Christian and the other man rejects and continues in his unbelief.
    Where did the first man get the ability to believe while the other man didnt or couldnt?

    Belief in free-will relies more on a philosophical, metaphysical assumption rather than exegetical conclusion. You deal with the human side but not the Divine side.

    Here is Arthur Pink:

    "Why is it that all are not saved, particularly all who hear the Gospel? Do you still answer, Because the majority refuse to believe? Well, that is true, but it is only a part of the truth. It is the truth from the human side. But there is a Divine side too, and this side of the truth needs to be stressed or God will be robbed of His glory. The unsaved are lost because they refuse to believe; the others are saved because they believe. But why do these others believe? What is it that causes them to put their trust in Christ? Is it because they are more intelligent than their fellows, and quicker to discern their need of salvation? Perish the thought-"Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" (1 Cor. 4:7). It is God Himself who maketh the difference between the elect and the non-elect, for of His own it is written, "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true" (1 John 5:20).

    [ June 21, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]
     
  4. Carson Weber

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    Lets say that two men are presented with the gospel. One man accepts and becomes a Christian and the other man rejects and continues in his unbelief. Where did the first man get the ability to believe while the other man didnt or couldnt?

    The second man did get the ability to believe. He could yet didn't. He rejected grace.

    You assume the doctrine of irresistible grace, but the Bible teaches that grace can be rejected.

    In Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, "You always resist the Holy Spirit!"
     
  5. BobRyan

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    This is nothing but classic Arminian vs Calvinist discussion as the Calvinist - vs - Arminian section of this message board will show.

    (And I do post over there as well under the Arminian view).

    Carson is simply giving the bare bones Arminian view. Not unique to the RCC in that case.

    But I don't see many Catholics posting over there. Its like they don't know they have a side in that debate.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Ps104_33

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    That still does not answer the question as to why. Why do some have that ability to accept God's grace while some do not? You say that it is the gift of human self-determination that restrains God's will to save all people while I believe that it is the glory of God's divine sovereignty that is the deciding factor. Semi-pelagians like yourself think the doctrine of election unfair because of the seemingly capricious act of God. But leaving it to the free-will of man doesnt explain why God allows one man to make the right choice and another won't/can't/doesn't. Leaving it to man's free-will would seem to put more people in hell than Calvinism. (of course that is my opinion)


    Eph1:4-8 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    Rom 9:15,21 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Bob,
    I know this seems like it would belong in another area of this board but this biblical tension between free-will and God's Sovereignty is one of the areas that separate the Protestant from the Catholic and I find that alot of IFBs take a semi- palegian view of God's Sovereighty also. I dont know if Catholics are allowed to post in the Calvinist/ Arminian debate but if they are I assume that they dont because they dont consider them selves Arminans.

    [ June 22, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]
     
  7. Carson Weber

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    Why do some have that ability to accept God's grace while some do not?

    Everyone has the "ability"; it's called "free will".

    Semi-pelagians like yourself

    You don't even know what you're talking about.

    Reference http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ330.HTM

    But leaving it to the free-will of man doesnt explain why God allows one man to make the right choice and another won't/can't/doesn't.

    God's allowance is what we call "the gift of free will". This is a natural gift upon which grace builds, heals, and elevates. Grace doesn't abolish nature but presupposes and builds upon it. Grace doesn't vanquish our free will, it wholly works with it.
     
  8. Born Again Catholic

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    Bob

    Pastor Larry has made it clear to me that it is open to all christians but Catholics, my posts have been deleted almost as fast as I can make them.

    God Bless
     
  9. Ps104_33

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    But you haven't explained why some are able to use their ability to believe and some to unbelief.
     
  10. Kamoroso

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    So Ps104_33. God created countless millions of people, for no other purpose, than to burn them in hell throughout the endless ages of eternity.

    Just exactly how, is this for the glory of God? I rather think, it would make him out to be the cruelest tyrant ever.

    Perhaps you could enlighten me.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Thank you for clearing that up. I had no idea they were doing that over there. I thought this entire section was to include non-Baptists freely.

    As it turns out Pastor Larry is a 5 point Calvinist. Sort of a conflict of interest in having him exclude the largest Arminian group within Christianity from an Arminian vs Calvinist discussion (which amounts to a discussion about free will in the Gospel).

    Thanks for that info.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Mankind is totally depraved due to the fall. Our sinful nature prevents us from "Seeking after God" as Romans 3 states. The heart is evil continually according to the Bible.

    However the Arminian model is that God "DRAWS ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

    That through His Holy Spirit working DIRECTLY upon the human heart He "Convicts the WORLD of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment".

    This proves the "ABILITY" that total depravity removed - the ability to "choose life".

    Christ coming into the world is the Light the brings light to Every one of mankind John 1.

    We are enabled to choose - because God supernaturally draws "ALL mankind" to Himself.

    But being ABLE to choose does not mean that we "WILL" choose light.

    In fact Christ stated that the "MANY" choose hell and the "FEW" choose life (In Matt 7.)

    Christ said "I stand at the door and knock if anyone HEARS My voice and OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3:20. That is the Gospel invitation - Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking - man enabled to open the door on the INSIDE but needing to make that choice.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    1John 2:2 "Christ is the atoning Sacrifice for Our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    "God so Loved the World that He gave...yes really!"

    Now I know that this is going to get me in hot water with some of my Calvinist friends - but I thought it would be interesting to see how the group is divided on this point on THIS area of the message board.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Ps 104:33 You are obviously stuck on the doctrine of election. So stuck in fact that you cannot see the scriptures in any other light.

    Were ALL the children of Israel set free from the bondage of the Egyptians? Or was it only those who believed in God with their whole heart, mind and spirit? The answer is, ALL of them were set free.

    Are all men set free from the penalty of sin? The scriptures say that Jesus atoned for the Sins of ALL THE WORLD, thus ALL mankind is included in that.

    Now, if all mankind is free from the penalty of sin, lets set sin aside as a condition for salvation, Sin is no longer a consideration.

    So that leaves works and faith.

    Do you know of any human who by his own effort has ever reached heaven? The builders of the Tower of Babel tried and failed, and all others who have similarly tried, have failed. The tallest structure in the world is seriously short of 1/2 mile high, the world's atmosphere is said to be nearly 180 miles thick from the surface of the earth to the point where earth's atmosphere no longer is measurable. So getting to a 'physical heaven' is beyond the reach of mankind. So works that you do cannot get you there. Ah! you say, "works" is a spiritual thing done in a physical realm, and rightly so. But, scriptures also say that salvation, which is eternal life with Jesus, is not of works lest any man should boast. Scriptures also tell us that mankind is given a variety of gifts with which to do works, so one can do bigger, one can make more beautiful, one can do faster, one can do longer, etc. All of which are boastable traits. Therefore we can rule out works for salvation.

    THAT GETS US TO THE TOPIC.
    That leaves faith! Jesus tells us that, whosoever believeth on him shall not perish but have everlasting life. That must mean that EVERYONE has the ability to believe in Jesus! Why else would God say that? We are all made in the image of God, therefore we must all have the same qualities, including the ability to believe whatever we choose to believe.

    God gave us His only Begotten Son to be the object of our belief unto salvation. What God did not do is precondition only some to be able to believe. We can all believe, that is the way God made us!

    So, the question as I see it is why do some in this day believe the 2000 year old story while many do not? Frankly, I believe God has more important things to do than tend to some 6 Billion humans on an obscure planet, in an obscure solar system, in a Galaxy vastly separated from the rest of his creation by hundreds and thousands of lightyears of distance. A lightyear being the distance that light travels in a year which is approximately 5.878 TRILLION miles, traveling at a speed of 186390.1573 miles per second, give or take a few feet. Unless of course you want to believe that God is not resting! After making something that big, I'd certainly want to rest for a long, long time.

    But then, we have that little scripture, John 3:16, that says that God so loved the world..., not just some of the world, but the whole world, a world in which sin is a principle resident. That He Gave us his Only begotten Son, no other like him, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Words right out of the mouth of God the Son. Why would God give his only begotten Son for some and not all of the world that he loves so much?

    Whosoever is entirely inclusive of ALL, so out of ALL, those who believe shall have everlasting life (salvation), those who don't believe condemn themselves to the lake of fire.

    That 'short circuits' election.
     
  15. Ps104_33

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  16. Ps104_33

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    Wasnt Israel God's Chosen people?
    For a group to be predestined, doesnt each individual have to be also?

    Didnt God harden Pharoah's heart?

    Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

    Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

    Exodus 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
    As usual Arminians provide alot of philosophical reasoning but no Scripture. I would have to see the verse so I could put it in context.

    Not much disagreement here on my part.

    All those that believeth on Him ( the elect) shall not perish. Once again Arminians put faith before regeneration. One has to be regenerated by the Spirit of God before one can have faith.

    Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    From the original post:
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    Thank you for clearing that up. I had no idea they were doing that over there. I thought this entire section was to include non-Baptists freely.

    As it turns out Pastor Larry is a 5 point Calvinist. Sort of a conflict of interest in having him exclude the largest Arminian group within Christianity from an Arminian vs Calvinist discussion (which amounts to a discussion about free will in the Gospel).

    Thanks for that info.
    </font>[/QUOTE]A point of clarification and contradiction. First the contradiction. Born again Catholic avowed to me today that Catholics were very Augustinian. Bob has pegged them as Arminians. Other catholics, in fact most, understand that they fall towards arminianism. Funny how that works eh??? :D

    Now the clarification: The CvA forum is undergirded by a particular approach to the gospel. Since Catholics have a fundamentally different approach to that gospel, they cannot participated on equal footing in a discussion about soteriology. Their soteriology is so drastically different that the inclusion of them in the discussion would serve no purpose. They would be talking about apples while we talk about oranges. They are welcome to discuss their soteriology all they would like to in this forum and if there are those who would like to discuss it with them, they are welcome to join them here. This has been the policy of the CvA forum since its inception.

    There is no conflict of interest. There is simply a different discussion going on there.
     
  18. Me2

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    whether it is one violator that sinned against God the father and his holy righteousness,

    or 200 billion of us...

    Christ has to stand in front of the father if not for 200 billion times and say..I died in place of this person...etc,etc,etc.

    for death's power to become useless and thus destroyed.

    He did just that and christians are living proof of this activity in history. we actually get an opportunity to experience our own spiritual death prematurally and be judged by the father and be substituted by jesus our propitiator and live in this sinned filled world as living proof in a world of temporary seperation.

    everyone has to eventually stand before the father..their creator, and jesus, his christ, has to declare that he substitutionally died for their sin in their place for death's power to become powerless...

    everyone...

    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    and has totally eliminated total seperation of all human life from God..from the power of death

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    or else, has anyone told you, the good news..

    that death has been abolished ?.
     
  19. Carson Weber

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    But you haven't explained why some are able to use their ability to believe and some to unbelief.

    They are able. They choose not to.
     
  20. Born Again Catholic

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    Originally posted by Bob Ryan
    Bob

    Yes especially as his co-moderator gave me an especially gracious welcome to the C/A forum and as the moderators of the other all christian forums have never discriminated against me.


    As I have discussed with him privately I find his actions extremely questionable. At the very least they should put a big asteriks there and say that 70% of all the worlds christians, including Orthodo Christians I suppose, are excluded from an all christian forum.

    As it relates to Augustine what Pastor Larry doesn't realize is that Calvinists tend to read Augustine selectively when it suits their beliefs Catholics tend to read him in his entirety.

    Here is an article that goes over many of Augustines beliefs which are misread by Protestants.

    http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ474.HTM

    One interesting trend I have noticed is that Calvinist tend to reconcile themselves to the Catholic Church extremely quickly. Here is a Catholic look at TULIP.

    http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

    Nevertheless these discussions probably go outside the scope of this topic so we should let Carson have his topic back.

    God Bless

    [ June 22, 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]
     

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