Foreknowledge? know before or according to plan

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Is not the foreknowledge of God being the knowing that he, God was going to gather from the Gentiles (heathen, nations) a people for his name rather than foreknowing individuals for salvation?


    Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    Not all of them but of them, a people for his name.

    Now when you get to 1 Peter 1:1,2 the word elect (choose) does not begin verse two but is actually
    found in verse one. Verses 1 and 2 from Young's Literal.

    1 Peter 1:1,2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice (Elect) sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

    Compare 1 Peter 1:1,2 from YLT above to Acts 15:14,17.18 YLT
    Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things. `Known from the ages to God are all His works;
     
  2. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2


    What is your take on........
    Romans 8:29
    “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
     
  3. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Foreknowledge is a natural divine attribute and NOT a causative factor.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Essentially what I would have written. Good stuff.:thumbs:
     
  5. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.


    (How did he punish them?) Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations,(Gentiles) like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

    (Was this forever?) Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,

    Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (Is he taking all of them or is he taking just the firstfruits?) Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.



    What is your take on Romans 8:29?
     
  6. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Is this or is this not a statement of foreknowledge?

    Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Is this a causative statement?

    Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the basis of God's foreknowledge? Is it just that God looks down the corridors of time, sees what everybody is going to do, and acts accordingly?

    Or, is it that God foreknows because he has decreed it to be that way?

    I want to be careful here because there is the little factor of God's omniscience. God knows all. God is also unchanging. So what he knows today he has always known. He cannot know anything new, because that would be a change.

    Now, regarding Romans 8:29, notice that here Paul speaks not of what God foreknew, but WHOM he foreknew. That is different from WHAT he foreknows.

    Then, chew on this. Acts 2:23
    Here is God's foreknowledge and decrees working in concert with each other. But look, he still holds guilty those who crucified Jesus.

    Guilty, even though their wicked act had been determined from eternity by the Godhead.

    Hmmm, God's sovereignty and free will working together.
     
  8. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    I believe, did foreknow implies to have known as a people before as in being reconciled with. Whereas foreknowledge has to do with things taking place according to the plan of God. The plan was the Lamb was to be slain. Slain does not mean to die naturally but to be killed. This was done by wicked hands yet with the foreknowledge of God. I believe it had to be by the foreknowledge of God for it to be a sacrifice as in Abraham sacrificing Isaac and to fulfill Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

    Also in reality did not this sacrifice cover the sin of those who slew him?
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    My take on this is that the Lord indeed knows "All things" that can possible be known...

    He ALWAYS knew all things, never had to learn something new to Him...

    Its just that some events/thing he directly causes to occurs, others that he permits/allows to happen, ALL though done in His Will /plans/purposes, NEVER has to 'switch plans/gets superised/learns something new"!
     
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, JF, help me out here.

    If God indeed knows all that can possibly be known, are you suggesting that there are some things that cannot be known, or that God cannot know? If there are somethings God cannot know, can you say what they are?

    Is there any way for us to know that which God decrees, causes to happen, as opposed to that which God simply permits to happen?

    I think we all can understand God's active involvement in those things which he decrees. Is God's exercising permissive will similar to taking a hands-off approach, with minimal or no involvement by God?

    I agree with you that God is never surprised. What he knows, he has always known. Just as what he decrees has always been decreed.

    Or, as my friend R. Charles Blair (former BB contributor) asked once:
    "Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?"
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    This is God's providence at work.

    Foreknowledge in the bible is God knowing intimately His elect before the world was.....not a look forward to observe them...or what they want to do..

    He knows them in a saving covenant relationship, before the world was;
    that is what romans 8 is about.
    Any other view that denies this is false at best...and most likely heretical.

    Biblical foreknowledge is no less that God's exact purpose to save His elect covenant people....made known and revealed to the church..

    He foreknows each and every single individual...each eternal soul that he intends to save.
    Again thats why the scripture says.....For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.....
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,912
    Likes Received:
    94
    :laugh::thumbsup::godisgood:
     
  13. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    I agree with you . Now let me see if I can get you to agree with me.

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

    Amos 3:1,2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Written when there were two houses, the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

    Deut 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Did I would make the remembrance of them ever happen to the house of Judah the Jews?

    They would both be scattered but there would not be even the memory of one of the families. This would be the house that was given a bill of divorce.

    Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. And God scattered her.

    Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, (the Gentiles) and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
    Ezekiel 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, (Gentiles) whither they went.

    The feasts of the LORD were given to both houses in the covenant made with them at Sinai. One being a holy convocation day to take place on the morrow after the sabbath, fifty days from the morrow after the weekly sabbath following the Passover. The day of firstfruits. Pentecost.

    Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    A holy convocation day?
    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    The house of Israel when the house of Judah broke off from them changed the times of the feasts of God mainly to keep the people from going up to Jerusalem, therefore on this day these filled with the Spirit were of the house of Judah. Some time later God sent Peter to Cornelius of the Gentiles.

    Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Not all of them but of them a people for his name sake as in Ezekiel 36.

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

    Of all the families of the earth, who had God known before and that he had given prophesies through his feasts of receiving the firstfruits of the Spirit.

    Another thing to remember is it was Judah who broke off from Israel, not Israel who broke off from Judah. Israel can be all inclusive Judah/Jews is not all inclusive.

    The elect, chosen, remnant from among the Jews noninclusive term and the Gentiles are the called out ones, the church that Jesus is building. Jesus the head, Zion, the people of God whom the residue of men may seek.
     
  14. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we're dealing with more than one definition of "know" in the scriptures.

    perchco mentioned Amos 3, when God told the Israelites "you only have I known."

    Then we have Genesis 4:25 "Adam knew his wife, and she bore a son...."

    Then there's Matthew 7:23, Jesus said "I never knew you."

    Know, in Matthew 7 is obvious. It speaks of the most intimate relationship between a husband and wife.

    I'm wondering if the other two passages I mentioned suggest something akin to Matthew 7:23. Not in a sexual sense, but in an intimate relationship sense. (Say, like Jesus and his Bride?)

    In neither case can it mean that Jesus doesn't know something or somebody. The Lord is omniscient. So, when Jesus said that in that day he's say "I never knew you," he obviously is not saying there's somebody he didn't know about, or was just not acquainted with them. His not knowing means something else entirely.

    I think we can carry this forward into the discussion of "foreknow." To me, it is a lot more than "foreseeing." I think it can mean that, in the mind of God, the relationship between the Lord and his children (the saved) was established long before it took place in time. This suggests that God is not passive in this process.
     
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    John 1
    11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

    Matthew 10:33
    But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

    Luke 12:9
    But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

    Revelation 3:5
    The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.


    He never knew them, because they were disowned.
     
  16. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    I agree with you.


    It most definitely is in the the context as a husband knows his wife. The reason Jer 3 is important as is the whole book of Hosea. I also believe it is also related to reconciled. Does reconciled not mean to have known, become lost and found again? Think of the prodigal son story in the context of Judah and Ephraim/Joseph and why the older would be unhappy with his father.
     
    #16 percho, Sep 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2011
  17. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

    From Westcott and Hort; a-callousing off of-a-portion of Israel
     
  18. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exodus 19:
    5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

    Romans 11:32
    32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Zephaniah 3:12
    But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

    Luke 10:21
    At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

    Proverbs 3:5
    Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;6 in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths ]



    John 6:45
    It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.


    John 6:64
    Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

    2 Corinthians 3
    14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

    Hebrews 3:
    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

    Jude 1:
    5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

    John 1:
    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

    John 12:32
    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”


    Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Romans 11:23
    And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Romans 4
    Abraham Justified by Faith
    1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
    7 “Blessed are those
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the one
    whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

    Psalm 73:28
    But it is good for me to draw near to God;I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
     
    #18 psalms109:31, Sep 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2011

Share This Page

Loading...