Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. revmwc

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    Romans 8:29 States "For whom He did Foreknow..."

    Their are some who say this is a mis-understood term. Even saying I don't understand foreknowledge.
    Well here is the Greek word used there:
    Proginosko:
    And here are it's meanings:
    to have knowledge before hand
    to foreknow
    of those whom God elected to salvation
    to predestinate

    To have knowledge before hand it says, Romans 8:29 states whom He had knowledge of beforehand, so before hand must be the sticking point. Whom did God know before hand and what did He know of them before hand?
    It says those He had knowledge of He predestinated, not that He chose them to Predestinate them but that He had knowledge of them, knowledge about them, or just knowledge. This is the sticking point in this term. It says that those He knew beforehand these He also called, this is the Greek word:
    Kaleo:
    to call
    to call aloud, utter in a loud voice
    to invite
    to call i.e. to name, by name
    to give a name to
    to receive the name of, receive as a name
    to give some name to one, call his name
    to be called i.e. to bear a name or title (among men)
    to salute one by name

    God calls us by name that is individually not corporately as some would have it, God knew you and I beforehand and called us by name and Predesnated, Proorizo:
    to predetermine, decide beforehand
    in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
    to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    For those God knew beforehand he Predetermined or appointed before hand, isn't that what Calvanist say, but this says He appointed them beforehand based on His knowing them, then he called them by name.
    The sticking point in all of this is that many of believe God's Omniciece is not Limited nor is His Atonement limited, that is where we seperate from the Calvanist. To say God couldn't look from eternity past into the future and see each individual is limiting his Omnicience, limiting His all knowing ability.
    So how do you folks see Foreknowledge if we interpret it incorrectly then show us how you interpret it. Don't just say we are wrong show us your interpretation of how you see us wrong.
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    Now....just follow through consistently with the golden chain of rom8
    28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29For whom he did foreknow,......the elect {God knows them in the covenant of redemption} while God in His omniscience knows about every person everywhere.......here we are told that He knows these elect intimately in a covenant relationship.....
    adam...knew eve,,,and she conceived......adam knew eve again.....
    you only have I known....of all nations of the earth amos3:2

    he also did predestinate......[these foreknown in a covenant relationship}


    to be conformed to the image of his Son, ...[the unsaved are not conformed to the image of the Son]


    that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. ...elect brethren Heb2:9-16


    9and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death. 10For it was becoming to Him, because of whom [are] the all things, and through whom [are] the all things, many sons to glory bringing, the author of their salvation through sufferings to make perfect,
    11for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified [are] all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    12saying, `I will declare Thy name to my brethren, in the midst of an assembly I will sing praise to Thee;' and again, `I will be trusting on Him;'

    13and again, `Behold I and the children that God did give to me.' 14Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

    15and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,

    16for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
    17wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people, 18for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tem


    30Moreover whom he did predestinate, ..............elect



    them he also called: ...........elect




    and whom he called, them he also justified: ..............elect





    and whom he justified, them he also glorified. .........elect
     
  3. AresMan

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    You are missing what proginwskw means when a person is the object. Ginwskw can refer to awareness of factual information, but it is primarily about knowing "experientially" or "relationally."

    If you say that you know someone, you are not simply saying that you have factual knowledge about that person. For instance, most people in the USA know who the current President is. However, if you say that you know the President, you mean that you have some form of mutual relationship with him. You have communicated or met in some form and you both have experiential knowledge of each other's person.

    Examine the following passages:

    Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


    Being betrothed to Mary, Joseph obviously knew information about her. In fact, he already knew her in the sense that he had mutual relationship with her. This is a euphemism for certain activity beyond mere personal relationship, but the point is that it is not referring to factual knowledge about a person or what that person does.

    Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    If this is referring to Jesus having factual knowledge about certain people, then we have a theological problem that would beyond even open theism. Obviously, the word knew here has to do with a mutual relationship, and not factual awareness.

    What, then, of foreknow (proginwskw)? Well, the same rule would apply when a person is the direct object.
    If God knows someone, it means that He has a mutual relationship with that person.
    If God foreknows someone, it means that He has a mutual relationship with the person "beforehand."

    Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom[/u] he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    Those whom God foreknew (i.e. fore-relationshipped), He called them according to His purpose. If God had a relationship with certain people before they even existed, then how can God be the "Great Responder" in this golden chain of redemption?!
    Those He called, He justified. This cannot, cannot, canNOT be the "general call"! The same ones that are "called" [according to His purpose] are justified!

    Things that make you go "Hmmm."
     
    #3 AresMan, Mar 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2012
  4. revmwc

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    You still didn't answer the how or what Foreknowledge is, you simply make this statement:
    "he also did predestinate......[these foreknown in a covenant relationship}" but why are they in a covenant relationship? (you didn't answer this)

    He foreknew them, what did He foreknow that placed them in a covenant relationship? (You failed to explain this)

    Why are they "ELECT"? (again not answered)

    Because He foreknew them.
    They are called by name, what name? (again you just they are not by what name)

    The name of the church or the name of the elect again how did they get that what did God know about them beforehand? (Again no answer)

    before they were born He knew them and elected them based on His Omnicience.

    You just keep saaying they were predestinated and elected. All was based on God's foreknowledge so again what or who did God Foreknow and in His Omnicience How much did He know?

    Did He know all things even how many hairs would be on our heads? What we would be what choices we would make?
    Do we want to limit God's Omnicience or see Him as Totally all knowing, if we say He is not limited then we need to look at the Atonement issue, if God is not limited then how is the Atonement for sin He provided limited?
     
  5. revmwc

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    So again what did God Foreknow about those whom He Predestinated?

    You go into this discertation about what to know is and yet still aren't answering what God knew beforehand.

    We as American knew the promises of the President, and yet did we know what He would really do? No because we are not Omnicient. God knew in eternity past mankind would need a Savior. Paul says:
    Ephesians 1:4
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Again He chose us we did not choose Him, but why were we chosen, Paul said based on what God knew concerning us beforehand.
    Peter stated in
    1 Peter 1: "19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    God knew before the foundation of the world that man would fall so He Fore Ordained Christ to be our payment. To know means a relationship you say, but God knew man would fall before He even created the World, God became the Great Responder to their needs right then and there in Eternity past.
     
  6. AresMan

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    Your question is begging the question. I answered what the passage in the OP actually means by defining proginwskw and showing examples in Scripture. The question is NOT "what did God foreknow about" anyone because the verse says "whom he did foreknow" NOT "about whom he did foreknow." Romans 8:28-30 is NOT saying that God foreknew something about people and therefore called them. It says that God foreknew them. This is a term of relationship, NOT of factual knowledge.

    God's calling, justification, sanctification, and glorification of these individuals is NOT based on Him having foreknowledge of what they would do, but rather on Him "fore-relationshipping" them according to the kind intention and mystery of His will.

    I believe you totally missed my point, and you are reading foreknowledge of facts into these verses.

    Where do you get this idea from this verse? It simply says that God chose us "beforehand" for His sanctifying purpose. Nowhere does this put a precondition of factual awareness.

    Yup. And the word for foreordained in v.20 is a form of proginwskw as well (as used in v.2), demonstrating that "foreknow" and "foreordain" are somewhat interchangeable. Things that make you go "Hmmm."

    You keep making assumptions that beg the question at hand.
     
  7. JonC

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    If I understand you correctly, you’re pointing out the difference between foreknowledge and pre-knowledge (to experientially know beforehand and to possess a pre-knowledge about something beforehand).
     
  8. revmwc

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    Again Strongs:

    Proginosko:


    And here are it's meanings:

    to have knowledge before hand
    to foreknow
    of those whom God elected to salvation
    to predestinate

    It begs the question what did God know Beforehand about those He Predestinated?

    Proorizo:

    to predetermine, decide beforehand
    in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
    to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    God knew before them who those he predetermined beforehand and called them
    Kaleo:
    to call
    to call aloud, utter in a loud voice
    to invite
    to call i.e. to name, by name
    to give a name to
    to receive the name of, receive as a name
    to give some name to one, call his name
    to be called i.e. to bear a name or title (among men)
    to salute one by name

    by name. So where is the question begging anything. We See God knew them beforehand and predetermined their calling and called them by name. He based it all on what?
    Knowing something about them, beforehand but it is also clear in Kaleo that he called them by name.

    You seem to think God has limited Omnicience and couldn't see that far into the future and yet God Preordained Christ to be the Sacrifice for man before the foundation of the world. Peter said that.
    I said that means He knew beforehand mankind would fall, and you say I made an assumption there.
    So why if God didn't know man would fall would He make plans by "...with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world..."
    for mankinds salvation?
     
  9. revmwc

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    Since God is all knowing at what point did He not know all of mankind and not know our choices?
     
  10. AresMan

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    Aren't you trying to put two of these connotations on the one use of the word? This is where you are question begging.

    ginwskw or proginwskw as an intransitive, or as a transitive with something impersonal as a direct object would carry definitions 1 and 2. As a transitive with something personal as a direct object, either would carry definitions 3 and 4 by virtue of what knowing a person would require if done "beforehand."

    God knew before them who those he predetermined beforehand and called them[/quote]God called those whom he "predetermined beforehand" because this is what is implied by foreknowing a person.

    Yup. God knew them (personally, relationally, NOT merely "what they would do").

    He based His decision to call, justify, sanctify, and glorify certain people upon His mysterious decision to foreknow them (i.e. enter into a loving relationship with them). He effectuated His relationship by calling, justifying, sanctifying, and glorifying them. He justified the ungodly.
    He did not base His redemptive chain on individuals based on "foreseen faith." That is NOT what this passage says. It is based on His foreknowing them, NOT their "actions." To assume that His foreknowing them has to do with foreknowing "what they would do" is reading into the text, pure and simple.

    NO, it is NOT. More question begging. You have yet to prove your assumption that God's redemptive chain is based on foreknowing actions. It is based on His eternal choice to "fore-relationship" people according to the mystery of His will.

    I believe that God is omniscient and that He knows and "foreknows" all things past, present, and future. However, the question at hand is on what basis is God's redemptive chain on certain people. The answer lies in the definition of what it means to know or foreknow people.

    Sure, God eternally knew the fall would occur. Your assumptions is that God foreknowing people means that His actions are based on His foreknowing what they would do. That is NOT what Romans 8:28-30 says.

    Yes, and the word for foreordained is from the same word as "foreknowledge" in v.2. Did God simply foreknow "what Jesus would do" or did He foreordain it? It's the same thing when God foreknows people. He foreordains them. He chooses them by entering into a relationship with them in eternity. On the basis of His choice to enter into a relationship with certain sinners, He brings this relationship about in time by calling them, justifying them, sanctifying them, and glorifying them. Romans 8:28-30 teaches effectual calling, not a response to "foreseen faith."
     
  11. AresMan

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    He "foreknows" everything about everything.

    What, then, do you suppose Jesus meant when He said that He would say to certain people in the last day "I never knew you." Does this mean that He was unaware of their existence or the things they did? Of course not! The knew has to do with relationship, NOT awareness of factual knowledge.

    God knows about everyone and everything.
    God knows people (He has a relationship with them), and there are people that God does not "know."
    This is the difference in meaning between knowing people and knowing actions. Understand?

    Now, if knowing people implies a mutual relationship (not awareness of facts), then foreknowing people implies the same thing: a mutual relationship, but "beforehand."

    There is NOTHING in Romans 8:28-30 to say that God's redemptive chain is based on His foreknowing actions. It is based on His foreknowing people (entering into a mutual relationship).
     
  12. revmwc

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    See now you seem to be saying God is not just nor fair because He only chose a certain amount of people to be saved, why did He not choose the others? It seems you are putting God in a little box and God can't work outside the box you choose to have Him because that doesn't fit your belief system. It isn't what you were taught and accepted so it simply can't be true.

    God according to what you are saying randomly selected people to be saved why would God chose one sinner over another sinner. God may not have chosen you our me even though we called upon Christ for salvation, if we aren't chosen in the sense you present it, no amount of calling on Christ for salvation will save us why, because we simply weren't chosen.

    According to what I see scripture saying God knew us He knew our past our present and our future, there was never a time He didn't know us. Was He surprised when I called on Him for salvation? No He knew I would, was He surprised when you called on Him for salvation, No He knew you would because He Foreknew us. He is all seeing all knowing and He clearly made the provision for man to be saved before the foundation of the world. So when did He not know everything about us?
     
  13. revmwc

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    Unless we pre-existed we could not mutually enter into that relationship could we?

    You want to make the relationship mutual but God Predetermined our position our standing before we were born and He did that based on what He knew beforehand.

    Otherwise you have God randoming picking who He wanted based on nothing but Him determining those He would save. That is not scriptural, for those He foreknew them (those people) did He predestiante to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

    Everything in man's salvation is based on who God is and His attributes one of those being Omniscience knowing everyone and everything about them in the past (eternity and on this earth) or present that we are having this discussion and our future (physical death, rapture and eternal home). It is all based on God and His decisions for each of us, individually and because He knew everything about us before we ever came into existence. He even knew when we would come into existence, long before the earth was created. Nothing is random with God. You seem to want to believe God did it at random God doesn't just Randomly do things He does them in order in Perfect order.
     
  14. JonC

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    I don’t think there was a point - God is eternal, immutable and omniscient. If there were a point when God was not "God," it would contradict the nature of God.

    Why do you ask?
     
  15. revmwc

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    So if God is eternal, immutable and Omniscient He knew everyone and everything about them before they existed. Which means He knew the choices they would make and becuse of that foreknowledge He Predestinated us to be conformed to the image of Christ thus that we would have eternal life with Him in Heaven.
     
  16. Greektim

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    But listen to yourself.

    If God is God and he knew the choices they would make, and God cannot change, and God cannot be wrong; then doesn't it stand to reason that even what God knew before hand was determinative since it could not happen any other way?
     
  17. revmwc

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    If and He is God.
    That would make it the Predestinated will of God would it not?
    Or Predetermined Will of God and written in Stone as the saying goes. That since God is God and God preknew us He Predetermined that we would be conformed to the image of His Son and we would be Saved.

    Wow thanks for helping to prove the point GreekTim.
     
  18. AresMan

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    The answer lies in the mystery of God's will and is not something that the creature has to understand. If the creature can hold his creator--the Self-Sufficient One--morally accountable, then there is a moral standard that exists independently from God's will to which God can be subject. That makes no sense whatsoever and begs the question about from where the definition of morality comes.

    Paul anticipates such questions in Romans 9:

    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


    If Paul thought the way you do, he would have replied to the question like: "Oh, you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that God really intervened in their will. That would be wrong!."

    No, what he says is "O man, who are you to answer back to God. Shall the molded say to the molder 'Why did you make me like this?'"


    It seems you are putting God in a little box and God can't work outside the box you choose to him Him because that doesn't fit your belief system. You assume that libertarian free will is true and must be true for moral responsibility, and therefore, God cannot accomplish His will because He is restrained by the autonomous will of His creatures.

    I was taught and was a synergist most of my life. I became a monergist simply by reading the Bible and being humbled and losing debates.

    I believe I have also paid scrupulous attention to the definition of words in Scripture on this thread and have showed other passages that prove it. You are arguing from your assumption of foreseen faith that begs the question, because that is the very challenge of the definition of the words in the verses in question.

    God did not "randomly" select people. He elected them "before the foundation of the world" and "according to the kind intention of His will" and "the mystery of His will." His choice was not "random." It was according to His purpose. Just because we do not understand God's will does not mean it was "random." Once again, here we have the creature demanding of God an explanation even as faithful Job did.

    Ask God, not me. Scripture only gives us statements like the above. It is neither my ability nor duty to answer for God.

    Election is manifested outwardly. There is no one who is elect who does not believe, and vice versa. The question is "why does one believe and another does not?"

    The Scriptures give evidence for how we know we are elect and how we can judge if another is elect. If we believe the Gospel, we are justified.

    The text in the OP shows that God does a chain of things to people that He foreknew. If you don't like that, don't blame me. Blame the Scripture.

    Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
    Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
    Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.


    If one believes the Gospel, one is saved. However, this faith in the Gospel that saves must be given effectually by God (whereby they then believe); otherwise, no one would believe.

    Sure, God knows everything about everything. That is not in dispute. But, what does Jesus mean when He says "I never knew you"? Obviously, He is not talking about information, but a mutual relationship. In the same way, if God foreknows a person it is NOT referring to knowledge of information, but rather a mutual relationship. The fact that God can "foreknow" a person "before" that person exists in time demonstrates that the relationship was initiated and effectuated by God, not by the person. We love Him because He first loved us. The text of Romans 8:28-30 says nothing about God's redemptive chain being based on God having "foreknowledge" of what someone would do (such as "foreseen faith"). God's redemptive chain of calling, justifying, sanctifying, and glorifying is based on His eternal choice to enter into a relationship with such persons "beforehand."

    Nope. Never said that He was. In fact, not only did He know that you would call on Him, but it was part of His eternal decree that you would.

    Because He foreknew us (not something we would do), our calling on Him was based on His calling of us. This calling is not the "general call" because, according to Romans 8:29-30, the very same people that are "called" are "justified," "predestined to be conformed to the image of His son," and "glorified." They are not a [/i]subset[/i] of the ones who are "called" in this context.

    He not only "made the provision for man to be saved" but He actually atoned as a substitute for the elect. He actually paid for their sins. He brings them effectually to faith in the gospel by the Spirit such that they fall into His embrace in love. They are translated (passive participle) from darkness into light. God changes them from being God haters to God lovers.

    Never, but there is a big difference in meaning between knowing about a person and knowing a person. Jesus said that there are people that He "never knew." This must be referring to relationship, not factual knowledge. To foreknow a person, then, must mean to have a mutual relationship with that person "beforehand."
     
  19. AresMan

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    How do you know what God can do regarding eternal relationships? I have demonstrated that that is what foreknew regarding people in this context must mean. You have failed to prove otherwise. You have only assumed factual knowledge based on your tradition. This is the "question begging" that I am talking about.

    This is the question begging I am talking about rearing its ugly head again. You have not proven this one bit, yet it is the very question at hand to determine the message of Romans 8:28-30 in the OP.

    There is no randomness in God's eternal purpose. Just because we as the creature do not have a 100% revelation of the mysterious will of the Creator does not make it random. Man does not have to understand God to believe God and what He actually has revealed about Himself in a limited fashion.

    Yes, those whom God foreknew He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. Those whom God "fore-relationshipped," He determined in His eternal council that He would do certain things to them: call them, justify them, sanctify them, and glorify them.

    Prove that salvation is based on "foreseen faith" in man, which seems to be what you are arguing. You cannot just assume this. That is question begging. It is the question at hand in Romans 8:28-30. You need to define foreknow in context against what I have demonstrated from Scripture.

    Yup!

    If you are trying to imply that God's calling, justifying, sanctifying, and glorifying of us was based on "foreseen faith," you have to prove that. If you just assumed that, you are question begging, because that is the question at hand.

    Sure.

    Of course not. Your contention that salvation is either based on "foreseen faith" or "randomness" is a false dichotomy and is a fallacy of the excluded middle. The excluded middle here is the infinite will of God that He did not reveal in Scripture.

    You keep asserting that if God does not depend on the autonomous cooperation of His creatures to effectuate His desire in them that the only alternative is "randomness." Just because we do not have 100% revelation of God's eternal decree does not mean His decree is "random." We do not have to understand how and why God does what He does to believe that He has a purpose in it. That's what humanism requires. As Christians we do not have to define God by human reasoning to believe Him.
     
  20. revmwc

    revmwc
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    It seems we differ on the fact that God Foreknew us before time and chose us to be His children. You come close on this statement to what I am saying "In fact, not only did He know that you would call on Him, but it was part of His eternal decree that you would."
    I see His decree as coming from His Foreknowledge of the choice He knew I would make.

    We probably disagree here "Election is manifested outwardly" because Paul makes it very clear there will be those who are saved and never have any works of divine value.
    1 Corithians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    It appears there will be believers who receive nothing but wood, hay and stubble for they donot show forth any sign of being a believer, they don't even have a soul winners crown. In verse 15 If a man's works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved. Nothing outward showing this believers calling yet Paul says they are part of the elect, part of the Body of Christ, Part of the Church and they were Predestinated to be conformed to Christ, called, elected justified all those things. Never served, never did anything for Christ yet saved and in heaven as one of the elect.
     

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