Forever?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by RLBosley, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. RLBosley

    RLBosley
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    I saw in another thread on the board that an individual was posting their view of what seems to be the universalism heresy. (Now, I know that word is thrown about with reckless abandon around here, but it properly applies to universalism.)

    The logic is that the word for "forever", aiōn, doesn't really mean forever. And that those condemned to the lake of fire "forever" in Revelation, aren't really there forever. Instead they are there for however long they need to be there to be purified and pay for their sins, then they will have mercy (horribly scarred from millennia in fire I suppose?).

    Let's see a couple passages:

    Matt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever aiōn Amen.


    Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for everaiōn: but the Son abideth ever.aiōn

    Romans 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. aiōnAmen.

    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever aiōnand everaiōn: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    The first 3 verses above use the word aiōn to describe the never ending rule and authority of God. That is (I should hope) not questioned. So to claim that the word does not mean eternal but instead "age lasting" is a blatant lie. For that to be true then the reign of God must be less than eternal. And eternal life must be less than eternal since:

    Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever aiōnand ever. aiōn

    If aiōn only means age lasting then our "eternal state" of blessedness with God must only be temporary. God even must be temporary since He "abideth aiōn"

    Now yes there are scriptures that use aiōn in an age long or temporary sense, such as:

    Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world aiōn marry, and are given in marriage:

    And others. However what does the context say about these? The context will clearly show when it is referring to a temporary age and when it refers to an eternal, never-ending state.

    This is especially clear in the instances where the scripture says "aiōn and aiōn:

    Phl 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever aiōn and ever. aiōn Amen.

    I Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever aiōn and ever. aiōn Amen.

    Rev: 1:16 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever aiōn and ever. aiōn Amen.

    and of course the "evil" Revelation 14:11:
    And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever aiōn and ever:aiōn and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    So are we really to believe that all those instances of aiōn and aiōn mean two temporary ages and NOT mean eternity? Really? Clearly the thought of "age after age" or "ages and ages" is used to express the never-ending eternal state. The same is used for the state of blessedness for the justified as well as the eternal state of punishment for the lost.

    Sorry for the long rant but i figured an instance of ACTUAL heresy could be a good diversion from the normal everyday ranting...
     
  2. Mexdeaf

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    Thank you for posting this- and for calling a heretic a heretic.

    Hell is not for purifying. If it is, then Jesus' death and substitutional sacrifice was needless.
     
  3. RLBosley

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    You are welcome. And I figured the word could stand to be accurately used for a change on this board. ;)

    Indeed, If hell is not eternal we have no basis for saying glorification is eternal. God might as well destroy us utterly and be done with it.
     
  4. HisWitness

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    for ever and ever--really? do you think this is 2 eternities?that would mean that eternity has and ending and another one begins ?

    The Age of the Ages is the proper translation

    aeon-short or long duration of time
     
  5. HisWitness

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    you fail to see my friend that Jesus did exactly what he was sent to do--that is to Purchase back THAT which was lost in Adam :)
     
  6. RLBosley

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    If you read what I wrote you would see that I nowhere state that it means 2 eternities. I explained it. You ignored the explanation just to cling on to unscriptural beliefs that make you feel good.
     
  7. HisWitness

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    Isaiah 32-14:: Because the palaces shall be forsaken:the multitude of the city shall be left:the forts and towers shall be for dens FOR EVER,a joy of wild asses,a pasture of flocks;

    verse 15:UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high,and the wilderness be a fruitful field,and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

    Now in these verses you have an event taking place that will last FOR EVER,UNTIL the spirit is poured out.

    Clearly friend the FOR EVER is AGE LASTING(short or long duratuion of time)

    Jonah 2-6:I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;the earth with her bars was about me FOR EVER;yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption,O Lord my God.
    Here again the word FOR EVER is used --the bars was about Jonah FOR EVER
    UNTIL God brought him up

    Clearly the word Aeon friend is AGE LASTING(short or long duration of time)

    To Clarify--when the word Aeon is used for mankind or temporal things it is for the Age--and when it is used towards the Lord-it is eternal

    These 2 scriptures prove that exactly and there are a lot more that says the same thing:godisgood::godisgood:
     
  8. RLBosley

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    I never said that aiōn means only eternal or forever. In fact I pointed out a verse that shows it is translated as world (age in other translations). But you must use the context to understand the meaning. It can mean an age, absolutely, I never denied that.

    And again you are avoiding the clear meaning that aiōn and aiōn indicates eternality.
     
  9. HisWitness

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    when the word is used pertaining to temporal things or mankind it is always used in the AGE sense--when the word is used about God -it is always in the Eternity sense--the scriptures I gave you and there are a lot more--prove exactly what im saying here:godisgood::godisgood:
     
  10. RLBosley

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    And your basis for that belief is what? Is man eternal? Are believers going to be eternally glorified with God?
     
  11. HisWitness

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    sorry for my spelling--the proper word is aion
     
  12. HisWitness

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    now you are trying to side step--you know that the only eternal is God

    I gave you scriptures that plainly state in Judgment on mankind that listed it as FOR EVER was AGE lasting and ending after a short or long duration of time

    there are a lot more to say the same thing--so instead of you trying to figure a way to denounce them--why don't you study on them:godisgood:
     
  13. RLBosley

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    I have studied them in depth. And I'm not side stepping anything. God is the only eternal intrinsically, but man will last forever as will the believers' glorification with Him.

    You have sidestepped and continued to sidestep the fact that aiōn and aiōn doesn't mean two ages but instead is used to describe eternity. God is described as lasting aiōn and aiōn; His kingdom is described as lasting aiōn and aiōn; The glorification of believers is described as aiōn and aiōn; and the damnation of unbelievers is aiōn and aiōn. There is no reason to think that the first 3 mean forever and the 4th only means an age.
     
  14. HisWitness

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    further on the FIRE--according to tradition of man--God will not be there
    men are supposed to burn for eternity--

    Friend the scripture says in Revelation that they will be tormented in THE PRESENCE of the Holy Angels and of the LAMB-Rev 14-10

    And another false assumption of the fire burning men for eternity--Fire burns up things and they are consumed--literal fire would burn us up quickly and we would be consumed--NOT burned eternity--so if you still want to hold to this,you got to say that it means annihilation.

    But the FIRE of God is not like literal Fire--its purpose is good--although their is torment in it--the end result is that of purity.
     
  15. HisWitness

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    aion and aion doesn't mean 2 ages or eternity--it is translated----

    For the AGE of the AGES
     
  16. HisWitness

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    Aion” signifies “an age,” of long or short duration. The age of man is limited; the “aion” of Deity
    is eternal.
    “An age, or period of time”. (WE Vine).
     
  17. RLBosley

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    Where is it translated as that?

    No! It is modern false teaching that says hell is hell because God is not there! God most certainly is there because hell is the wrath of God being poured out on the wicked as punishment for their sins. Hell is hell BECAUSE God is there! And He is there in fury!

    And no i must assume no such thing. Whether it is literal fire or not I do not know for sure but it does seem that way, and if it is it isn't fire are we know it. When God appeared to Moses He appeared in a burning bush, yet the bush was not consumed, there is no reason to think that God cannot do the same to a man in the lake of fire for eternity. Revelation clearly says the purpose of the lake of fire is punishment... not purification. It's retribution, not rehabilitation.
     
  18. HisWitness

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    Aion is often translated in scripture as “world” or “course”. Bro Thomas defines it as a “course
    of things termed olv olahm in the Hebrew writings, and which in innumerable places is very
    erroneously rendered ever” (Herald Vol 9, p152).
    “This is the word, then, adopted by the Septuagint, and by the writers of the New Testament, as
    the best in the Greek language, by which to designate the Abrahamo-Mosaic and the
    Abrahamo-Messianic cycles, and the cycles beyond.
    "The period of each existence", says Aristotle, "is its aion." A man's life-time is his aion;
    the period of the apocalyptic Beast of the Sea's continuance is its aion; the time during
    which the Aaronic High-Priesthood was appointed to continue was its aion,..” Bro
    Thomas, Christadelphian Vol 9 (1872) p465.
    Aion often occurs as “for ever and ever”, which literally means: “for the age of the ages”. It
    occurs fourteen times in the Apocalypse. This phrase does not define eternity, but the millennial
    age of one thousand years that is made up of shorter epochs of time. Christ's dominion over
    flesh will last one thousand years (Rev. 20:6), after which he will deliver a perfected Kingdom up
    to the Father that He might be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:24-28).
     
  19. HisWitness

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    please explain the FIRE in 1st Corinthians 3-15--because that FIRE and the Revelation lake of FIRE is the exact same word in the greek.
    you have to say that both Fires do the same thing and have the same purpose--so which is it ?
     
  20. RLBosley

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    There is nothing in scripture or the language to support that.

    If that is so then in Revelation where it says that to God be glory and power aiōn and aiōn; and that God lives aiōn and aiōn; and that God's kingdom shall last aiōn and aiōn, you mean to tell me that only means for the millennium? That it's somehow limited in time?

    Just because it is the same greek doesn't mean it has the same purpose. We have the same word in English for a flying rodent and a stick of wood - bat - but that doesn't mean they share the same purpose (though that would make baseball more entertaining). The passage themselves declare the context and no matter how much you wish to twist it, they are not the same.
     
    #20 RLBosley, Apr 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2013

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