Four Points of Calvinism in one verse

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him.

    While there are scores and scores of verses clearly backing up the doctrines of grace, (here) I like 2 Timothy 2:11 the best. Why? Because three of the five points of Calvinism are EXplicitly stated, and 1 other is IMplicitly stated. Let's take a look:

    Paul opens the chapter up with a comment to Timothy: "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus." This chapter is about grace. So our context is set. People like to excuse away Romans 9 as referring only to the Jews, so we need only go to a myriad of other scriptures to get our understanding of grace. Romans 9 could easily be excized from the scriptures and the doctrines of grace still stand strong.

    Limited (definite) atonement is taught in 2 Tim. 2:11. If we are dead in Christ we shall live with him. According to the Arminian, ALL people were dead in Christ on the cross. He cites 1 John 2:2 as 'proof' that all were dead in Christ, but disregards a number of other passages in the process. All couldn't be dead in Christ or all would live in Christ. Universal terminology was used frequently to the Jews because they thought salvation was only for them (Christ dealt with this often). Christ died for those who would live.

    Irresistable grace is taught in 2 Tim. 2:11. The certainty of this verse is astounding. It IS a faithful saying- if we be dead in him we SHALL live with him. There is no leeway to break from being made willing. Our wills aren't forced, but there is certainty to our salvation. Verse 13 elaborates that even if we are not faithful, Christ is faithful to us (which I will get into in the next point). I can force a dinner guest to drink water by salting his steak, and I think God makes us willing in much the same way. He salts our path with difficulties or raised questions. He works in our hearts and causes us to seek His salvation. By the time acceptance and faith emerges, we may gladly owe the entire event to God! If we were dead with Christ on the cross, we WILL be with him someday in heaven. Our salvations are sealed and signed with blood.

    Final Perseverance is taught in 2 Tim. 2:11. Going along with the certainty of an irresistable salvation, we have certain security in that salvation. If we are dead in Christ we SHALL live in Christ. Exceptions to this are conveniently left out and verse 13 even elaborates this point. If we are unfaithful to Christ (by sinning) he will still remain faithful to us. But certain perseverance and eternal life WILL occur to the one who was dead with Christ.

    Unconditional Election is implied in 2 Tim. 2:11. It is implied because if those who will live with Christ had to die with him on the cross, they had to be predetermined to die. Verse 13 hammers home the point that the election is unconditional because it's entirely about God's faithfulness not ours.

    Can you cut 2 Timothy 2:11 out of the word with the pen knife of Jehudi? Can you twist the short phrase with an eisegesis consistant with your free-will philosophy? Can it be interpreted any other way than that all who died with Christ will live with him someday? If so I should like to see such an amazing feat.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  2. rc

    rc
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    Post Tenebras Lux Daniel !!

    Nice...
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Pure foolishness Dan,
     
  4. whetstone

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    Really? What is your interpretation of 2 Tim. 2:11? Do tell. :D
     
  5. Wes Outwest

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    2 Tim 2:11. Here is a saying that you can rely on: If we have died with him, then we shall live with him.
    IF we die to self in devotion to Him, we shall live with/in Him!

    Calvinist's do not like verse twelve, because it destroys their concept of "Election". OSAS'ers do not like it either, because PAUL is telling Timothy that it is possible for man to fail God, and that God will deny those who do.

    2 Tim 2:12. If we persevere, then we shall reign with him. If we disown him, then he will disown us.
    If we persevere with/in Him, we reign with him. If we disown, fall away from him, he will disown us.
     
  6. whetstone

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    Huh? you are adding to scripture. the verse doesn't say dying to self in devotion. The first verse in the chapter prefaces that Paul is referring to grace.

    Actually I like verse 12 very much. It is evidence of final perseverance, not being able to lose your salvation. Denying Christ proves that 'he never knew us' not that we lost salvation. Deny Christ, he will deny you. Very simple concept. You read into verses very much I think. Notice that you can't face each verse but have to offer your 'parallel' verse of what it SHOULD say. Why not look at what it DOES say instead?

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    No just giving my Holy Spirit inspired view of scripture

    Peter denied Christ thrice. Could you be wrong in your interpretation. It is not denial that causes one to lose salvation, it is loss of faith in the Christ that causes one to lose salvation.

    Do you have a problem with that?
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    Only for points Hmmmmm!!!
    Calvinism wavers after all;
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. whetstone

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    2 Timoth 2:13 Disagrees with you.

    If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    You are correct that Peter's denial didn't cause him to lose salvation. He was faithful to the last (being crucified upside down) proving he was a believer. His actions were the outward manifestation of his faith. But even a loss of belief will not cause us to lose salvation. As you mentioned, even Peter wavered. It is the utter and ultimate denial of Christ that will cause Christ to deny us (proving we weren't a believer to begin with). Christ is faithful when we are not. That's the beauty of a relationship with him.

    "You read into verses very much I think. Notice that you can't face each verse but have to offer your 'parallel' verse of what it SHOULD say. Why not look at what it DOES say instead?"

    As a defender of the purity of holy scripture, yes. As a person, I won't lose a wink of sleep over it. What you do with scripture is your own business. As for me, I can do naught else than stand upon every verse of scripture as my own (even those that apparently contradict others). It is all inspired. I may offer my exegesis (finding things IN the verses) but I will never offer such eisegesis (producing things in the verses that aren't there in the first place). At least you are upfront with your tactics. Commendable honesty anyways. Take care.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    I believe you ripped verse 13 out of context.
    2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
    Plain and simple try reading the Bible you never know you might learn something.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. whetstone

    whetstone
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    now now mike. ad hominems get you no where. ;) I read the Bible whenever I get the chance. Claiming I pulled verse 13 out of context demands proof. Please show me how verse 13 doesn't mean Christ will persevere where we don't?

    In Christ,

    Dan
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    You mean to tell me that You're so blind that you didn't read verse 12. Your verse doesn't say one thing about what you claim. However verse 12 says the truth of the entire thing your trying so hard to refute. Open your eyes fun is fun but ignorance of what scripture really says is ridiculous.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Mike, if I am the weaker brother (as you apparently believe) how do you feel your words are edifying enough to convince me of the truth? If I can't convince you of anything doctrinal, I'd at least like you to get the sentiment that I care about the people I talk to here and don't desire to grossly insult them. Your personal attackes on people (rather than their words) are not very Christ-like. If I am the weaker brother- cut me a little slack ok?

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    From an observers point of view, whetstone, you are not interested in edification or the truth. You are interested in "winning" the battle of wits.

    Typical of youthful zealots!
     
  15. whetstone

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    [​IMG]

    Don't worry. I don't fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man. :D

    ONLY PLAYING!!!
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    I think maybe you judge me unfairly sir. When you make statements like this.
    You see it is a typical Calvinist technique to accusse your breathern what you your self is most guilty of :D
    I'm not unarmed why don't you pick on someone your own size.
    In order to build you up or edify you. You first must clearly understand what is being said in scripture. Taking scripture out of context to prove a false doctrine is done by all the cult's. JW's are very good at taking scripture out of text. Just like Calvinist. You want to know how I'm going to convince you I'm not. If you are convicted it won't be by me I'm not deity.
    All I can do is show you the truth it's up to you to believe it.
    Your judgement is telling of your self. Right away you hop on the bus with a heretic and then expect every one to take you seriously. How you going to convince me? when you haven't proven one claim yet.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  17. whetstone

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    Mike don't be so serious all tha time [​IMG]
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    And you demand respect from us?
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    I'm as serious as a heart attack when it comes to truth. Sure I have a sense of humor but Laughing and teasing won't save any one. Only Jesus Christ can do that.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. Rich_UK

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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