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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DeafPosttrib, Aug 10, 2006.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Mexdeaf,

    I prefer to debate on this than at Pastorial Ministries. Because it is for fellowship only.

    You presented verses to support unconditioanl security salvation to me. I am aware of these as what baptists intepreting. I am happy to discuss on these, as what you presented or given to me.

    You listed them:

    John 3:15; 5:24; 6:37; 10:27-29; Romans 8:1, 33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 1:12; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13,18; Jude 1,24

    I have no problem with all. I agree with them all as what I understand.
    Let's discuss on these.

    John 3:15

    "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    John 3:16 is a very popular among religions over the world today for a long time. I know John 3:16 since I was young boy at Lutheran church many years ago.

    Normal for many Christians' favorite verse is John 3:16. Many baptists love John 3:16. Baptists believe John 3:16 proved of security salvation that no person can be perished, when after once believed in Christ, already have eternal life.

    I love John 3:16. It is a beautiful verse. Also, this verse is a promise to us.

    John 3:15-16 do not prove us of unconditional security salvation at all.

    I use King James Version.

    The most important key word of John 3:15 & 16, 'believeth'. Notice two last letters of this word - 'TH'. Word, 'believeth' means continue believing. KJV of John 3:15,16 do not say, 'believed'. If supposed it says, 'believed', then, it proved of security salvation. I would have to beieve it.

    But, in KJV of John 3:15-16 say, 'beliveTH', it means continue believing. So, it is conditional, not unconditional.

    Christ promises us, anyone who believing in Christ will not go hell, but have eternal life. This is the promise for us, who continue believe in Christ WILL not go to hell, but shall have eternal life. OR.... if a person stopped believing will not have eternal life, go to hell.

    Romans 11:19-23 teach us, anyone shall be cutting off from the tree because of their UNbelief. Same with John 15:6 warns us, if anyone does not abide for Christ, shall be cut off cast into fire.

    John 3:15 talks about the promise for anyone who is believing shall not go hell, but have eternal life. It apply to faithful people only. I am not 'Limited Atonement' as what Calvinism teaching. I am not Arminian. I understand clear what John 3:15 talks about.

    John 3:15 doesn't prove it is unconditional salvation. It teaches us, anyone who continue believing in Christ shall not go hell, but have eterna life.

    John 5:24

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you. He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

    Christ promises us, if any person hearing His word(Bible), and believing on God that sent Christ, having everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment(hell), but it passed from death(punishment & sin) unto eternal life.

    Important first part of verse 24 says, "heareth my word". It means, anyone who keep his word(commandments) while obey Christ, and continue believing in Christ, having eternal life.

    This verse does not proved that it is already automatical already saved at once. It is continual salvation for these who continue obey Hs Word, beliving in Christ shall have eternal life. It is conditional depend on individual of their decision.

    John 6:37

    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

    This verse seems prove that it is security salvation because of the last part of verse 37 says, "no wise cast out", prove that a person cannot lose salvation.

    But, we have careful to read verse 37, what it talks about.

    Christ said, all people that God, the Father giving them to Christ, who SHALL COME to Christ, and that person that comeTH to Christ, no way a person shall be cast out. That means, if anyone come to Christ(speak of ask Christ for forgive and receive Him as saviour by through decision), and that person who is continue coming to Christ is speak of faithful endure in Christ, shall NOT cast out. OR... if a person stopped endure or abide for Christ shall be cast out according John 15:6 & Romans 8:19-23.

    Obivous, John 6:37 does not prove of unconditional security salvation, for these who is continue coming(faithful/abide) toward Christ, shall not be cast out.

    John 10:27-29

    "MY sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

    Baptists use John 10:28-29 as strongest evidence of security salvation, prove that no person include Satan can take believer out of Christ's hand. Christ's power to hold us long as no one, fallen angels, Satan can take us away out of His hand.

    I love John 10:28-29 is a beautiful promise passage.

    Notice important verse 27 tells us, Christ says, "My sheep HEAR my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me."

    Two important words - 'hear', and 'follow'. Christ promises us, if anyone hear his word(gospel), and then come and FOLLOW Christ.

    I heard famous classic song - "I decided to Follow Christ, no turn back" many times. It makes sense. Anyone who already decide to follow Christ, no turn back.

    I want to show you another verse. In Luke 9:62 says, "And Jesus said unto him, NO man having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Christ used farmer as illustration. Famer plowing the crop keep straight forward, cannot turn back, or the lines would be mess up. Same with us that we must follow Christ forward to enter the kingdom of God(have eternal life). Or... if we turning back, and stopped follow Christ. Then, Christ shall loose us out of his hand, because of our freewill decision & choice.

    Same with Luke 15:11-32 about the prodigal son. At the first place, father already own two sons. One day, his younger son decides want to leave his father, go on his own way. Christ says, once a young son astray far away is LOST- period.

    John 10:27-29 do not prove of unconditional security salvation. It is conditional depend on individual's decision, if want to stay follow Christ, or not. Too many stopped follow Christ are on the way to destruction.

    Romans 8:1

    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    They use Romans 8:1 to prove unconditional salvation, because of "now no condemnation".

    We have to read Romans 8:1 carefully.

    Notice it says, "...who WALK NOT after the flesh, but AFTER the Spirit." Apostle Paul tells us, there is no judgment upon them, these WHO are WALK NOT after the flesh, but after Holy Spirit. That means, we must walk holy life, separate from the world, do not be filled with flesh, lust, filthy mind. Keep our mind pure, because God is holy. OR.... what IF we remain walk after flesh, then we shall have condemnation.

    Obivous, Romans 8:1 talks about conditional base upon our spiritual life walk. It promises us, there will be no condemnation upon them, WHO WALK NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

    Romans 8:33-39

    "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Wh is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession of us Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, not things to come. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    This context passage seems prove it is unconditional salvation. But, this passage is not talking about salvation. It is talking about God's LOVE. Everything, any situations, any conditionals CANNOT separate us from the love of God. We face trials, persecutions, problems, etc... but, God still love us, no matter what happen to us.

    Phillippians 1:6

    "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

    This seems prove of unconditional security salvation. This is talking about Christ's working in us from the beginning at our salvation till we die or Lord comes.

    Notice above verse - Phil 1:5 says, "For your FELLOWSHIP in the gospel FROM THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW."

    Verse 5 tells us, we once heard the gospel, believed and accept Christ, then we should continue fellowship with Christ continue from the first day of our salvation to now, and continue till we die or Christ comes.

    OR... what if we stopped fellowship(relationship) with Christ, and astray away from Christ. Then, He shall not working in us during in our life. Unless, till we must first repent and back to the Lord again, then he will continue working in us till we die or Lord comes.

    I better stop because of limited length post. I will continue next post.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. Watchman

    Watchman
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    What an excellent example of reading into the Scriptures what you want to read into them, instead of taking God's word for what it says.
    I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. Oh yes they can.
    He that hath began a good work in you...is not able to complete it.
    I know in whom I am believed...but He is not able to keep that which...
    We do not deserve to go there and we do not deserve to stay there.
    The Lord is my Shepherd. A Shepherd is responsible for the sheep. It is His part to lead, guide, correct and see us to the end. I realize that there are some passages which seem to point to an ability to lose salvation. In such cases there MUST be another explanation for those verses. God becomes our parent at salvation, He knows what He is doing and will see us to the end. God the Son prayed to God the Father in John 17 to KEEP them, "through your own name..." (v. 11). God can keep three men from being burned in a furnace, or a man from being devoured by lions: he will keep them that are His in answer to His Beloved Son's prayer.
     
  3. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
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    DPT,

    To believe that salvation is conditional based on on anything that a Christian can do after they believe is to deny God's grace and to teach a works salvation.

    In essence it is to add something to what Christ did for us on the cross and that is heresy.
     

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