Free Will Baptist

To believe that Hebrews 6 means you can give up or lose your salvation, doesn't it also have to mean you can't come back?

 

Yes. Understand, however, that Reformation Arminians do NOT believe one can jump into or out of God's grace on a whim. Apostasy is the deliberate, willful and final rejection of faith. Once someone has done that, "there remains no more sacrifice for sins..." (Hebrews 10:26). And, it is impossible for them to come to repentance again, because that would require that "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame" (Hebrews 6:6).

The real issue I see with most "Christians" (and Churches) in the USA isn't about Apostasy -- it's about "believing in vain." Many who think they are saved, who shook the preachers hand, who were "baptized," who filled out a little form or just attend church, somehow are under the impression they are saved.

Apostasy is a relatively rare thing, though arguments about unconditional perseverance vs. possibility of apostasy are everywhere, on this board and beyond. What we should REALLY be concerned with is those people who are deceived and have never really trusted Christ in the first place.

JDale

 

Over the years, having attended all 3, I have found Free Will Baptists and Methodists to be more in line with each other than FWB and Southern Baptists.

Maybe they should be Free Will Methodists????

 

Interesting observation RR. How so? I mean, how are FWB's more like Methodists than SB's? Methodists have an episcopal polity, they "baptize" infants, they believe in a "second blessing" (entire sanctification) and they tend to be quite liberal generally (though in the Southeast I know a good many conservative Methodists). The only similarity of more traditional Methodists and FWB's is their Arminian convictions regarding perseverance -- and the Methodists are more likely to believe in repeated regeneration than are most FWB's.

On the other hand, FWB's while more culturally conservative than are SB's in general, share with them all the Baptist distinctives -- believers baptism, local church autonomy, congregational polity....The only thing they really disagree on is once saved always saved vs. the possibility of apostasy. SB's have even moved toward FWB's regarding "open communion" in recent decades.....?

JDale

 

Far from being an expert in the area...just attended a FWB and a Methodist Church that were only about 2 miles apart, so maybe more of a community thing than any other. Both churches, which I attended a great deal for some years were very much opposed to the Once Saved, Always Saved theology. Both had open communion, and to be honest, never saw a lot of difference between infant baptism and infant dedication...both ceremonies were almost the same. When the FWB needed a new minister, they looked to their conference for help, the Methodists had a new minister assigned by their conference, not a lot of difference.

Again, that was just two churches 2 miles apart. In that community, the FWB and Methodists were more alike than the SB other than the FWB and SB thought you shouldn't drink any alcohol while the Methodists thought you shouldn't drink to excess.

 

Since you are in NC, it's very possible that you are familiar with an "Original FWB" Church. They split from the larger FWB denominaiton in the early 60's because they believed in "connectional government," where the conference has ultimate authority over the local church. In these churches, they do indeed favor a methodist-like set up, though they retain their Baptist heritage.

JDale

 

Bingo. It was the OFWB that I was reared in.

 

Had to Chime in

Let’s stop excusing away the Word of God and let It speak for Itself. I don't see how you could read anything into the following verses…

Hebrews 6:4-6
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

"Once enlightened" "tasted of the heavenly gift" "Partakers of the Holy Ghost" "tasted the good Word of God" what more do you need to hear, to understand who this is talking about?

If they shall fall away, it would be impossible to renew them again. So because you don't like the last part, you can dismiss it as not applying to you?

It doesn't apply to Jews only, that's ridiculous. So when Paul sent a letter to Timothy, it doesn't apply to any of us, because it was written to him and his church? That is trying to twist the Word of God to suit a man-made doctrine.

What about Hebrews 10:26-27
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

And Hebrews 12:15-16
"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."

The writer talks about the heavenly Father chastening whom He loves, as a Father corrects His children, because He loves them. What is the purpose of correction? To keep them from repeating. Why?

Is it mere coincidence that in the same breath, the writer mentions someone failing at grace? How can we fail at grace, when it's God giving the grace and we have nothing to do with it?

Is it mere coincidence that in the same breath he mentions Esau giving up his birthright? What does the birthright signify...? God's grace. Being a part of God's family. Your covenant with God... whether it be the old covenant or the new covenant.

Oh he's only talking to the Jews... right! What covenant do they have today, if Jesus Christ is the only way? To say that Hebrews only applies to the Jews, would be saying that it is possible for a Jew to fall from grace. Even though the only grace available, is the of Christ. If these Passages were talking to Jews only, they were still talking after the New Covenant was signed, sealed and delivered. What's the difference between a Jew under the and a gentile?

And what about 2 Peter 2:20-21
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Is escaping the pollutions of this world, not escaping sin, thru Jesus Christ? If the latter end is worse than the beginning... was not the beginning (before salvation) , punishment?

So if you escape the trap of sin, but then become entangled again in it (in other words, unable to get out... i.e. remaining in it) your punishment will be worse than, it would have been from the start. Because you made a mockery of God's grace!

The list goes on and on. In fact, if you read the Bible as a whole, the entire Word of God speaks of God's grace and man's free will. From beginning to end, It doesn't change. Religion is the only thing that's changed. Mankind has created a doctrine that soothes their soul and makes them feel good about where they're at. It alleviates there worry.

I was saved in a Southern Baptist church and called to preach in an Independent Baptist church. And it wasn’t until I began really reading the Word of God for myself and not just having someone preach to me, what I should believe... I began understanding that eternal security, cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. I realized, that to believe it, you had to excuse away so many passages of Scripture.

And yes, there are still some verse that are hard to understand. Whether it's eternal security or predestination or tongues or whatever. But when all else fails, take the whole Word of God and let It speak for Itself.

I believe that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. You're saved by grace thru your faith. Not of works, you could never earn it, never be good enough, all your righteousness is as filthy rags. It's your faith in His righteous 's atonement for your sin. It's your faith in His Life. Who He was, what He did, what He can do for you.

But the key to all that is your faith. If you ever lose your faith... what then...? It's not about whether or not you sin, it's about your faith in God.

The original person who started this thread, brought up a good analogy, but looked at it from the wrong perspective. Someone's already mentioned this, but real simply put... person isn't pushed out by God (He'll never leave you nor forsake you). The person forsaken the driver and the car and the destination, is the person trying to jump from the car. Now we all have to agree, that someone willing to do that, is not right in the head. But I don't understand how anyone can know that God's Son died on a cross for them and not give their life to Him. And yet, the Bible says few people actually enter thru God's strait and narrow path. Few people get it.

The analogy I use, to explain free will is this. If a man is saved and his family two. He has a loving wife and two wonderful children. One day, his wife picks up the kids from school and on the way home, a drunk driver hits them head on and kills the man's wife and both his precious children.

Obviously the man is stricken with grief. He's angry and furious. He's angry at the drunk driver, angry at God. , depressed, but more than anything else, just down-right angry to the core.

Then at the trial, he hears the drunk driver plead guilty and throw himself on the mercy of the court. He hears the drunk driver mention, how that this incident has turned his life around. He got saved and began AA meetings and has found forgiveness from God. He's ready to accept whatever punishment he has coming. He only hopes that the father of the family he killed, could ever find it in his heart to forgive him.

The father remembers Matthew 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." But he does not care. In fact, it only causes him more anger and resentment and rage. He's furious at the thought that God could forgive this man. He not only can't forgive this man for taking his family, he can't forgive God for allowing it to happen. And to make matters worse, forgiving the man who caused it.

In the end, the man curses God (as Lot's wife suggested) and turns his back on his faith.

What is the end result of that man? If I met that man, in my ministry, what would I say to him? What could I do for him? Is all lost? I believe that's where the idea of eternal security comes from. We don't want to believe anyone can be irredeemable. And so, we explain away Scripture and find ways to deal with the hard issues.

That fact is, none of us know, when a man has reached that point of no return. Even the father in our story. None of us know at exactly what point, he had reached the point of no-return. Some suggest, he doesn't reach that point until he draws his last breath. Some suggest, an all-knowing god, knows now whether or not he'll ever come back and thus he seals his fate now.

But what about poor Esau, who sold his birth right and then wanted it back, but couldn't get it back, even though he sought it bitterly with tears. He had lost it forever and was unable to find forgiveness again.

So, what do we do with this man? Love him, pray for him, do all you can for him. The main thing, don't let this be us! I don't know what it takes to reach apostasy, and I don't want to find out! But pretending it doesn't exist, isn't going to make it go away...

 

I've had Dispensationalists claim that none of the Gospels are addressed to us today. That makes about as much sense as saying that Hebrews and James not applying. her's my answer.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

People try to cut out of the Bible passages that don't fit their own theology. That's a real problem.

 

There is nothing so sad as a Christian who believes that God will not keep His word that He allowed His Son to die in vain.

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The above passages clearly prove that that believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God. In Romans 8:30 we see that in the mind of God those He called and justified are already glorified. We consider further the words of the Apostle John:

1 John 5:10-13, KJV
10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There are two aspects in the above passage we must consider, the first is objective. This passage says that if we believe in the Son of God we have eternal life, if we do not believe the Scripture record that God gave of His Son we make God a liar. Furthermore, John tells us that he writes so that we may know that we have eternal life if we believe.

The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John writes in the above passage: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. What is that witness? The Apostle Paul writes:

Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV
13. In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Witness that we have within us is the Holy Spirit. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, that is we are kept eternally secure, protected, by God the Holy Spirit until our redemption is complete, the return of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of the body.

The Holy Spirit then bears witness to the truth of Scripture, Scripture which tells us:

Hebrews 6:17-19, KJV
17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:
18. That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19. Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

This Scripture shows that if we deny the eternal Salvation of those whom Jesus Christ died for then we make God a liar, an impossibility.

We look further at the teaching of the Apostle Paul in the letter to the Church at Ephesus.

Ephesians 1:3-11
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Once again we see that if we deny that God will keep safe those who are His through the blood of Jesus Christ we make Him a liar, an impossibility. Again the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 8:35-39

35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Finally we look at the prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ before he was delivered up to be crucified.

John 17:11-26
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

To deny the eternal security of those for whom Jesus Christ died, given His prayer for the Church, the redeemed, is to make His death meaningless and His word, the Word of God the Son, useless. There is nothing ambiguous in any of the above Scripture. God will keep those for whom Jesus Christ died.

 

This discussion has prompted a question.

The Free-Will Baptists hold that if a man can exercise his free will to trust Christ for salvation, he may also exercise his free will to stop believing, and thus forefeit his salvation.

Most Baptists on this board hold that a man may exercise his free will to believe, but may not exercise his free will to stop believing. He cannot lose his salvation.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in eternal security.

Just wondering if anybody would like to tackle this apparent inconsistency.

 

I am a FWB Pastor and must admit that I do not completely understand the doctrine of ES as taught by most baptist. Is the common belief that man can not stop believing or if he does forfeit his faith that he is still saved?

 

Scripture tells us the following:

John 10:29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

No man means no man. If a person is saved by God Scripture tells us:

2Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This new creation in Jesus Christ will have no desire to not believe. Even if he could scripture says that no man can take them from the Father. Seems rather simple to me.

 

The inconsistency is that man does not believe of his own free will. If you will read my rather long earlier post you will see scripture that shows this truth.

 

Actually, rather than saying that one cannot stop believing, it is more precise to say that he will not stop believing. In a larger sense, those of us who hold to eternal security, placed our trust in Christ alone for salvation. It is He who will keep us.

That said, I believe that your view of free will and losing one's salvation is more consistent that my fellow Baptists. Were it not for the clear scriptures which teach eternal security, I would be forced to believe as you do.

Understand, brother, that I am a Calvinist who believes that the very repentance and faith by which we trust Christ for salvation were given to us by God. Those gifts of repentance and faith will never be taken away from us (Romans 11:29) It God who keeps us, not our faith.

Non-Calvinist Baptists come at this from a slight different angle, but our view of eternal security is the same.

 

drfuss: I know of three different versions of eternal security among SBC Baptists.

1. The SBC Calvinists - God alone decided that a person becomes a True Christian (God's elect); therefore, since a person did not chose to become a Christian, he cannot chose to stop believing. If a "Christian" decides to stop trusting Christ, he was not a real Christian (elect) in the first place.

2. Most SBC Eternal Security Christians - A True Christian will endure to the end. If a "Christian" decides to stop trusting Christ, he was not a real Christian in the first place, because a real Christian would have no desire to stop trusting Christ.

3. Charles Stanley, etc. - A true Christian may stop trusting Christ, but because he was a Christian for some time, his sins are still forgiven even though he stopped trusting Christ. Once a son, always a son.

 

Allow me to tinker with your definition of SBC Calvinists. God chooses those whom he will save (God's elect). He gives them the ability to freely choose to repent and trust Christ for salvation. He also will preserve them and enable to persevere by his power. John wrote that those who go out from among believers were never believers.

I agree with No. 2

Never heard of No.3, but it's in error, and I don't know anybody like that.

 

drfuss: 3. Charles Stanley, etc. - A true Christian may stop trusting Christ, but because he was a Christian for some time, his sins are still forgiven even though he stopped trusting Christ. Once a son, always a son.

Tom, there was a thread on BB a few months ago about Charles Stanley's eternal security belief showing it was different from other eternal security beliefs. Others on here also quoted from his book on eternal security showing number 3 above to be true.

For instance, in his book entitled Eternal Security under his chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", The following is given:

"I imagine that a woman who has gone through an experience like the one described above would always have faith in firemen and their nets. But even if she did not, the fact remains that she was saved from the fire. In the same way, in all probability, a Christian who has expressed faith in Christ and experienced forgiveness of sin will always believe that forgiveness is found through Him. But even if the believer does not, the fact remains that he is forgiven."

This is also on his website found by using his search engine for eternal security.

While I don't have it in my files, others on the previous thread showed where he said God will not give back the gift of salvation even if we want him to.

Perhaps someone will be able to pull up that thread.

I have to go now.

 

I believe that was the position espoused by Zane Hodges.

 

drfuss: I have never read anything by Zane Hodges, but I was told that he also believed version number 3.

Many people (probably most) who have not been exposed to enternal security beliefs, but have only heard about it; believe that Stanley's position is what all eternal security people believe. I know that until we started attending a SBC church over 16 years ago, I though Stanley's eternal security version was the only version.

We should be aware that when we mention eternal security to many people, Stanley's version is what they assume we are talking about.