I couldn't get this to post in the other thread for some reason so I thought I would start a new thread with this post. BD17, that's interesting that you posted Packer's Intro - just two nights ago I stayed up late and read it and about the first 100 pages of "Death of Death". Hay, great minds think alike, right? Anyway, I noticed the exegesis of the verses I posted can be summed up by the Pelagian camp thusly: John 1:13 "who were born...not of the will of man, but of God" Pelagian: “God made a mistake; he meant to say “who were born by the will of man” Eph 1:11"who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" Pelagian: “God made a mistake, he meant to say “who worketh SOME things (those few things that he decided not to make man sovereign over) after the counsel of His own will” James 1:18 "by His own will begat he us" Pelagian: “God made a mistake, he meant to say “of OUR own will begat he us” Romans 9:16 (typo on post) "so it is not to him that willeth..." Pelagian: Responding to Rom 9:11, stated that God can reject entire nations but not single individuals. Huh?? Deuteronomy 29:4 Pelagian: Didn’t respond, why should he? Isaiah 46:10 Pelagian: Didn’t respond, just as well. Psalm 65:4"Blessed is the man whom the Lord choosest, and causest him to approach unto thee" Pelagian: Didn’t respond, it’s just as well. He would go on another long diatribe about how it CAN’T mean what it says because anyone knows that in order for God be to “fair”, and to meet fallen man’s corrupted notion of justice, He must allow man to have “free will” by which he may choose, of his own natural ability, no matter how corrupted by sin, to become born again of his (man’s) own will, by his own faith which God did not supply, or if he did, he did it not in an effective way but in an ineffective way so that only man can make salvation effective by the little piece of righteousness that we did not lose when Adam sinned, so that those of us that believe are more righteous than those that do not choose to believe, and therefore we can boast of our righteousness.