1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Free-will, Lucifer and God

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndThisGospel, Feb 3, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ez 28:14 “You (Lucifer) were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

    God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?
     
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Of course the word Lucifer is never spoken in the great epic poem about Tyre in Ezekiel 27 & 28. Perhaps before you talk about Lucifer you can do a historical study of Tyre. It will help you to study the entire passage before you imagine it to be a passage about free will.

    By the way, the poem Ezekiel penned about Tyre is consider the greatest epic poem in antiquity. It is the masterpiece by which all other epic poems are measured. I am so psyched by God's work in inspiring Ezekiel.
     
  3. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Apparently that was a blatant attempt in trying to minimize the passage.

    Some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Lucifer turned Satan

    The question remains: God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?
     
  4. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It is phenomenal poetry. However, we must first consider the historic reference to Tyre and the amazingly detailed description of Tyre in chapter 27. Once we understand the context of how it fits with Ezekiel and his intended audience we can then consider if there is something beyond this.

    But, you jump right in to an interpretation outside of context and invoke Lucifer even though the name is never mentioned in the passage. Even worse you somehow try to make the passage about God's work of redemption and reconciliation. How do you even manage that pretzel?
     
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Lucifer ain't Lucifer. It is the king of Babylon. Probably Beltechazzer...
     
  7. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Oh, so when God said you were "the anointed cherub who covers” and you were ""the seal of perfection" He was addressing an earthly king? Please, look at the [Edited] context[Edited].
     
    #7 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2017
  8. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Where did I make it "God's work of redemption and reconciliation"? Waiting!
     
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Look, stop with the insults. I am trying to be civil here.

    The passage is dealing with the king of Tyre. Now, I think this is a picture of how Satan fell. But the king of Tyre ain't Satan, neither is Lucifer.
     
    #9 SovereignGrace, Feb 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2017
  10. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    As already stated, "most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Lucifer turned Satan."

    Nonetheless, we are privy to some good information on Lucifer here in this passage. Now, can anyone answer my question?

    God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?
     
    #10 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  11. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You don't even have to go the whole (questionable) "Lucifer" route.

    Just ask the question---why did Satan in the first place? (the TRUE "original" sin)
     
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    We cannot know how pride seeped into Satan. God only reveals that pride entered. We know that this does not diminish God's sovereignty. It does not diminish God's holiness. It does not diminish God's personhood.

    Andthisgospel, may wish to diminish the character of God by forcing free will to function apart from God's authority. I do not know the reason.

    What I know is that Satan has no means of reconciliation with God, nor do any of the fallen angels. What I know is that the angels long to know God's redemption and reconciliation as they observe it functioning with God's gift of grace extended to humanity.

    What I know is that God's gift of grace and faith is incredibly amazing and humbling.
     
  13. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    It's only questionable to those Calvinist who oppose anything that hurts their theology. At one time Satan was "perfect" and "sinless". He wasn't named Satan then because that name means "the adversary".

    Is 14:12 also directly speaks of Lucifer: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" NKJV

    Why did Lucifer sin and become the adversary?

    What is sin? The classic answer is "sin is the transgression of the law" (the moral law). But what is "sin" singular? Sin singular leads to sins plural.

    What is sin singular? But before touching on that question what was Satan's sin? He went from dependency upon God to be dependency upon himself. He thought that he was big enough to go it alone. This separation from God caused Lucifer to become bent-to-self. This is the root meaning of iniquity: “crooked” or “bent.”

    Lucifer was created by God with only agape love. Therefore he was "the seal of perfection"; he was blameless. But self-dependency caused his agape to become "bent" to himself. In other words it became a u-turn agape or self-love. Therefore the love of self is the root of all our sinning. Hence sin singular is the love of self.

    The bigger question is how could a perfect being sin? The answer has to be because God made him with a free-will.
     
    #13 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Same way tha Adam also becom a sinner, by choosing to sin and rebel against God!
     
  15. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    People question the Satan-Lucifer association all the time. Not all of them are Calvinists. I am very much not a Calvinist, and I personally find the association questionable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    How? Yes, it is called "the mystery of iniquity". Why would a sinless being even think opposite of God? The simple answer is free-will, but even then it doesn't make a lot of sense.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ONLY Satan and Adam ev r had real free will to choose, and even then, both of them were under the decrees and ordaining of God!
     
    #17 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  18. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Let's keep to Lucifer for now....I don't believe Lucifer one day said, "I think I'll rebel against God." Separation from God brings sin (singular). Lucifer began to doubt and question God's Sovereignty, which is basically "without Me you can do nothing". He questioned God's agape love. That produced the slippery slope. We know the rest of the story.
     
  19. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    715
    Likes Received:
    3
    Please make this a bit more legible.
     
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    2,727
    Likes Received:
    443
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    We cannot know the mind of God. If God is our King then we trust God's character and attributes. It would be an arrogant thing for the creation to question the Creator and ask "Why did you make me this way?"

    But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
    ~ Romans 9:20
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...