Free Will vs. Free Agency

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by psalms109:31, Apr 12, 2014.

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  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm

    "It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing."

    C.H. Spurgeon

    Luke 22:42
    “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

    John 6:40
    For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    Psalm 73
    King James Version (KJV)
    28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.

    Romans 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    There is only our will and His will, to be saved we must do not our will but His will.

    We cannot do everything we want to there is boundaries that God has placed, free will is ridiculous.

    We are saved by His will that came from the word of God not our own will.

    We believing in Jesus isn't our will, but the will of the Father. We are responsible by our free agency to follow His. It doesn't change the fact by what will we are saved which is His will.

    You did not just one day by your own will believed in Jesus, but God through the Holy Spirit through His word worked on you and you are saved by the will given to you by the Father.

    We are responsible to do His will by our free agency, but we are not saved by our own will, but His will.
     
    #1 psalms109:31, Apr 12, 2014
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  2. prophet

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    Rom 10:3
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    We excercise our will when we submit to His.

    Even the angels had a choice, God never forces anyone to love Him, because force denies love.
     
  3. steaver

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    Is this about semantics? You (and Spurgeon) lost me here.......
     
  4. Crabtownboy

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  5. psalms109:31

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    I do no not deny choices that is even more ridiculous to not. We exercise our will we do evil.

    We do as Jesus said not my will, but your will

    It is a denial of our will to follow Jesus to be saved.

    It is to beat our will to submission and say not my will but your will be done.

    I believe we make choices, but it doesn't come from our will, but from another part of our soul the free agency.

    Free will is ridiculous, because it is a war against our will to follow God.

    I thought the way many have on the will, but Jesus changed me when He said
    not my will but your will be done.

    When we followed Jesus we denied our will not by a free will, but by a free agency.

    I do not deny scripture or change or shape it. I believe God does not want anyone to die but rather them to repent and live in order to to the will of God not our own will is to deny our own will that is at war with God to repent( to turn to God through Jesus Christ) and live.

    1 Corinthians 9:27
    No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
     
    #5 psalms109:31, Apr 13, 2014
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  6. prophet

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    You are just arguing semantics here.

    Our will is free from outside coercion, not outside influence.
    Free will is choice without force.
    If one "forces his own will" to submit to another's, he chose freely to do so.

    "Agency" is cute, not a scriptural term, and a distinction without a difference.
     
  7. prophet

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    Do you punch yourself?
    Do you flog yourself?

    How exactly do you strike this blow of free agency?
     
  8. psalms109:31

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    Free will is saying I can do what ever I want to with no boundaries and it is bent to do evil.

    It is simply a denial of our will to follow Jesus.

    It is not our will to follow Jesus it is the will of the Father.

    We deny our will to follow Jesus.

    A free Agency can not do what ever it wants it is just following the will of the body because it doesn't have another will.

    So free is not attached to the will but to our agency.

    A free agency is bound within the boundaries God places us in. It cannot do what ever it wants to, until we are given another will we will continue to follow the will we know.

    The will to follow Jesus came from the Father, it is not our own.
    Your will be done, not my own, shows me 3 forces here.

    (1)Our will
    (2)His will
    (3) something else within us to choose between the two, which I call the free agency that Spurgeon speaks better of it the web page given in O.P.
     
    #8 psalms109:31, Apr 13, 2014
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  9. psalms109:31

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    John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

    Hebrews 5:8
    Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered


    Jesus is granted a life to Himself, that I call the free agency.

    That we are responsible for our action not God.

    We have are will to live our own life for us and the will of God that comes from the word of God.

    What did Jesus do if He didn't have a life to Himself to give up this life for God, that through Him we can defeat this flesh also?

    Jesus is God because He defeated the will of His flesh to live, His 100 present being man. Only God is good.

    He is also 100 percent God and He proved it by defeating His flesh His will to live for himself.

    When He said not my will the will of His flesh Him being 100% being man, but your will, the will according to the word of His Father



    John 14:10
    Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

    John 14:24
    Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.



    We beat our flesh our will by the word of God the Father in heaven the sword of the Spirit through Jesus Christ who strengthens us.



    James 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Submit Yourselves to God

    4 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

    4 You adulterous people,[An allusion to covenant unfaithfulness; see Hosea 3:1.] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[Or that the spirit he caused to dwell in us envies intensely; or that the Spirit he caused to dwell in us longs jealously]? 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

    “God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.”[Prov. 3:34]
    7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

    11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family.] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

    Romans 7:
    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[Or in the flesh] a slave to the law of sin.

    1 Peter 4:11
    If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Apr 19, 2014
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  10. Inspector Javert

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    I read through that entire "sermon".....
    and it's little more than semantical games and trivial nonsense. "Distinctions without a difference" is the perfect summary of it.

    Since when does any reasonable man make this statement?
    "It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense."

    Oh, o.k.....so Spurgeon says :rolleyes:

    Sorry, the "Prince of Preachers" laid an egg with this one.
     
    #10 Inspector Javert, Apr 19, 2014
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  11. Inspector Javert

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    Yes....it's purely semantical and frankly, it's academic gobbledygook.
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0442.htm

    What do you think about this one?

    "The great controversy which for many ages has divided the Christian Church has hinged on the difficult question of “the will.” Without a doubt that conflict has done much harm to the Christian Church, but I will also say, that it has been loaded with immeasurable usefulness; for it has thrust forward before the minds of Christians, precious truths, which without it, might have been kept in the shade. I believe that the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty have both been brought out more prominently in the Christian Church by the fact that there is a class of strong-minded, hard-headed men who magnify sovereignty at the expense of responsibility; and another earnest and useful class who uphold and maintain human responsibility oftentimes at the expense of divine sovereignty. I believe there is a need for this in the finite character of the human mind, for the natural lethargy of the Church requires a kind of healthy irritation to arouse her powers and to stimulate her actions. The pebbles in the living stream of truth are worn smooth and round by friction. Who among us would wish to suspend a law of nature whose effects on the whole are good? I glory in that which at the present day is so much spoken against-sectarianism, for “sectarianism” is the jargon phrase which our enemies use for all firm religious belief. I find it applied to all sorts of Christians; no matter what views he may hold, if a man is earnest, he is quickly labeled a sectarian. Success to sectarianism, let it live and flourish, for the day it ceases then we can say farewell to the power of godliness.

    When each of us cease to maintain our own views of truth, and to maintain those views firmly and strenuously, then truth will fly away, and only error will reign: this, indeed, is the objective of our foes: under the cover of attacking sects, they attack true religion, and would drive it, if they could, off the face of the earth. In the controversy which has raged-a controversy which, I again say, I believe to have been really healthy, and which has done us all a vast amount of good-in this controversy mistakes have arisen from two reasons. Some brethren have completely forgotten one category of truths, and then, in the next place, they have gone too far with others. We all have one blind eye, and too often we are like Admiral Nelson in the battle, we put the telescope to that blind eye, and then complain that we cannot see. I have heard of one man who said he had read the Bible through thirty-four times on his knees, but could not see a word about election in it; I think it very likely that he couldn’t; kneeling is a very uncomfortable posture for reading, and possibly the superstition which would make the poor man perform this penance would disqualify him for using his reason: moreover, to go through the Bible thirty-four times, he probably read in such a hurry that he did not know what he was reading, and might as well have been dreaming over “Robinson Crusoe” as the Bible. He put the telescope to the blind eye. Many of us do that; we do not want to see a truth, and therefore we say we cannot see it.

    On the other hand, there are others who push a truth too far. “This is good; oh! this is precious!” they say, and then they think it is good for everything; that in fact it is the only truth in the world. You know how often things are injured by too much praise; how a good medicine, which really was a great treatment for a certain disease, comes to be utterly despised by the physician, because a certain quack has praised it as being a universal cure; so exaggerated praise in a specific doctrine leads to dishonor. Truth has thus suffered on all sides; on the one hand brethren refuse to see the truth, and on the other hand they magnified what they do see way out of proportion. Have you seen those mirrors, which when you walk up to them, you see your head ten times as large as your body, or you walk away and put yourself in another position, and then your feet are monstrous and the rest of your body is small; this is an ingenious toy, but I am sorry to say that many approach God's truth using the model of this toy; they magnify one basic truth until it becomes monstrous; they minimize and speak little of another truth till it becomes completely forgotten. In what I say this morning you will probably detect the failing to which I allude, the common fault of humanity, and suspect that I also am magnifying one truth at the expense of another; but I will say this, before I proceed further, that it will not be the case if I can help it, for I will honestly endeavor to bring out the truth as I have learned it, and if you believe that I am teaching you what is contrary to the Word of God, reject it; but be aware, if it is according to God's Word, then reject it at your peril; for once I have delivered it to you, if you do not receive it, then the responsibility lies with you.

    This morning, there are two things that I will have to talk about. The first is, that the work of salvation rests on the will of God, and not on the will of man; and secondly, the equally sure doctrine, that the will of man has its proper position in the work of salvation, and is not to be ignored...."

    C.H. Spurgeon
     
    #12 psalms109:31, Apr 19, 2014
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  13. prophet

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    Yes. Somebody is looking for their 15 minutes.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    I of my own free will clicked on the link to this particular thread to discover its content. Maybe, just maybe, that was an evil act.
     
  15. JonC

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    How do you know it was of your own free will that you clicked it? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  16. psalms109:31

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    Free will can't be wrong, that it can't be a war against our will by using the word of God the sword of the Spirit given to us by God

    It is crazy to question what we have been taught all our lives. I have question it and I am not ashamed.

    Not my will, but your will be done praise Jesus
     
    #16 psalms109:31, Apr 19, 2014
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  17. psalms109:31

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    By scripture shown and gone further to explain than just by going by only what Spurgeon said.

    That there is our will that is enmity with God.

    There is His the Father's will shown to us in every word that comes from the mouth of God in the scriptures.

    Then there is a free agency when given the will of God can through the power of the will of God given to him by God through His word to say not my will that is enmity with God but your will be done.

    This is just simple dismissed by saying free agency and free will is the same thing when Jesus disagree when by His free agency seen the war between His will the will of the flesh and the will of the Father and said not my will but your will be done. I have already said this earlier shown this earlier that Jesus is 100 percent man having our will and 100 percent God having the will of God because He proved this by being only one good never sinned and only God is good.

    Luke 22:42
    “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

    I believe in a will just free is not attached to it instead to follow Jesus we must deny our will that is enmity toward God by our free agency to say not my will but your will be done.
     
    #17 psalms109:31, Apr 20, 2014
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  18. steaver

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    Say what??? :tongue3:
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Just because I stutter or can't put my words together in proper sentences doesn't mean I should use that excuse not to at try to express myself and trust God to make it clear to those who want to listen and try to understand what God has revealed through Christ word.

    Not my will but my Father's in heaven will be done.

    Enjoy your Easter Sunday!
     
    #19 psalms109:31, Apr 20, 2014
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  20. steaver

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    Oh no brother, I don't think you are stuttering :tear:

    I want to listen, I want to understand! But I think the problem is the parsing of words.

    God has given mankind freewill. Yes, this freewill must operate within the boundaries which God has set in place. I can will all I want to jump up into the air and stay there suspended until I will to return to earth, but that ain't going to happen.

    "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (Duet30:19)

    " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke13:34)

    Happy Easter to you as well! :wavey:
     
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