Free-willers used to kill and persecute

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Apr 5, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Gordon Clark ( 1902-1985 ) is a favorite of mine .I have a lot of his books . He was a philosopher/theologian . I am not inclined toward philosophy that much . So I have his more overtly theological works . Perhaps one of his best is Religion , Reason and Revelation . Chapter 5 of that was put into booklet form . It is called God and Evil . Dr.Clark cited Augustus Toplady regarding my title heading .

    Gottshalk , who believed in double -predestination was incarcerated for more than two decades and tortured too . He spoke of the reprobate Jews : ' Our Lord perceived that they were predestinated to everlasting destruction and were not purchased with the price of his blood . '( page 23 )

    Clark cites Toplady , who quotes John of Wesalia : " God hath from everlasting written a book wherein he hath inscribed all his elect ; and whosoever is not already written there will never be written there at all . Moreover he that is written therein will never be blotted out . " ( page 23 )JoW was tortured because of those kind of statements .

    Clark says on pages 24 and 25 : Patrick Hamilton's sentence of death read : ' We , James , by the mercy of God , archbishop of St. Andrews , primate of Scotland , have found Master Patrick Hamilton many ways inflamed with heresy ... that man hath no free will . '

    Clark : Richard Woodman , who was burned at the stake with nine other martyrs at Lewes in Sussex , answered his examiners : ' If we have free will , then our salvation cometh of ourselves : which is a great blasphemy against God and his Word . ' Richard Gibson , examined by the Bishop of London , was called upon to profess that ' a man hath by God's grace a free choice and will in his doing . ' Gibson denied the proposition and was burned to death with two others others in Smithfield . Thirty-four persons were persecuted and expelled from the towns of Winston and Mendelsham because 'they denied man's free will and held that the Pope's church did err . '( pages 25,26)
     
  2. rsr

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    Enough is enough. This is nothng more than inflammatory.

    Can't you Calvinists and Arminians just shut up, for Christ's sake?

    I am seriously thinking of closing any more threads that deal with Calvinism-Arminianism because you folks cannot behave and insist upon ascribing the basest motives to your opponents, and it goes both ways.
     
  3. rsr

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    I apologize for my unChristlike outburst. I should never have said "shut up" and I did not intend to squelch debate.
     
  4. Rippon

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    Well , let's just deal with these interesting historical facts .
     
  5. Amy.G

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    "Free willers" do not kill and persecute. Wicked sinful men do. It has nothing to do with being a "free willer".

    I have had many fruitful and pleasant discussions lately with my Calvinist friends, but this will not be one of them.
     
  6. donnA

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    thats probably why it wasn't a good thing that the c&a forum was closed.
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

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    We should be above reproach

    While the information presented is informative to know how Christians have suffered in the past, and may encourage us to hold fast our faith in Jesus Christ, to title a thread the way it is was even offensive to me, a staunch calvinist. And I cannot see how such inflamatory slogans can advance the cause of God and truth and hold us out to be above reproach.

    Rippon, brother, is there another way? :praying:
     
  8. Rippon

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    Facts are stubborn things RB . It is illuminating to see some history . Notice I did not say that "Free-Willers Kill And Persecute " . The Title of the OP was using the past-tense .
     
  9. Amy.G

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    Do you think if I were to start a thread titled, "Calvinists used to kill and persecute" that you might consider it to be inflammatory?
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    Well, I don't want to debate the point with you brother, but I think you lost your audience.
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    I would. :saint:
     
  12. npetreley

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    Absolutely.

    Now, count up the times people have tried to discredit calvinism by accusing Calvin of being a murderer of Servetus (without even learning the details of how it all went down). Then count up the times anyone has accused ANY free-willer of killing or murder. That should put things in perspective for you. ;)
     
  13. Amy.G

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    Is this thread intended to even up the score?

    I haven't accused anybody of anything. I have tried to be gracious, but I find the title of this thread offensive.

    It doesn't matter how many time "free willers" (I really hate that name) accused Calvin of murder or whatever. You shouldn't return venom with venom. Calvinism/Free will rises or falls on Scripture alone, not personal childish attacks.
     
  14. TCGreek

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    1. Amy, while I'm in concert with my Calvinistic brethren here on BB as we espouse the doctrines of grace as taught in Scripture, I will have to agree with you on the title of this thread.

    2. The title of the thread may not be the best. You are quite correct in your criticism of the thread's title.
     
  15. npetreley

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    I didn't start the thread, so I don't know. My point was only that if you find it offensive, then how do you think calvinists feel all those times when people dredge up the Servetus affair? The solution would be to stop yelling "murder" on both sides.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    Thanks RB and TC.

    :wavey:
     
  17. Amy.G

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    I suppose you feel offended as well. But we shouldn't return the insults with insults. That's all I'm saying.

    I prefer the term "doctrine of grace" rather than Calvinism. That way only the doctrine is being discussed and not the man.
     
  18. David Lamb

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    So do I, Amy.
     
  19. 2 Timothy2:1-4

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    The op lacks a certain level of maturity.
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

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    Brethren,

    Let's regard our brother's choice of title as a poor decision and spring from his zeal for truth, but not necessarily the best part of wisdom. And let us show all kindness and compassion and forgiveness, and so glorify our Father who is in heaven.
     
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