From NANC on counselor candidates

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by agedman, May 6, 2012.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    Yesterday, I posted about those in the healing profession (especially those who deal with mental/emotional... problems) must be familiar and capable of using a "toolbox" of resources.

    Had I thought to look, I would have quoted from "The National Association of Nouthetic Counselors (which) is a fellowship of Christian pastors and laymen who have banded together to promote excellence in biblical counseling."

    NANC site

    In the statement(s) is the following paragraph that is appropriate to the discussion found in the now closed threads.

    There may be candidates who in practice deemphasize or misrepresent God’s agency, power and promises. Perhaps they only pay lip-service to the Holy Spirit’s role in our moral transformation. Their counsel might so focus on the moral law, diagnosing sin and prescribing righteousness, that they forget how the promises of God are daily bread, water of life, refuge in affliction, and source of mercy and hope. They might counsel as if human agency and volition were all-decisive. They might view people as having some innate power of will to “Just say No,” not communicating the whole relationship with Christ. They might underestimate people’s sufferings and limitations (“encourage the faint-hearted, hold on to the weak”) in their earnestness to identify people’s sins (“admonish the unruly”). Moralism is a different sort of panacea, but rarely wears a brand name label.​


    This quote is from the section on what "graders" are looking for when weeding out those who do not qualify as meeting the expectations of NANC certified. I underlined a portion to indicate what my statement in the thread was attempting to indicate.


    Please understand that at no time would they ever advocate a person not seek medical help in resolving any issue in their life.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    You also must note more importantly they never advocate drugs as a way to resolve a behavior issue. The only cure is confessing and forsaking. All behavior issues are spiritual and stem from sin. The only remedy for that is confession and forsaking. I would point out that this method is only for believers as a lost person has no hope but drugs to mask their behavior because they have nothing in them to overcome their sin.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman
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    You are wrong. On at least two points.

    First, the NANC is not "licensed" to prescribe medications. The NANC is certainly not opposed to the medical community in seeking advice and help.

    An individual psychiatrists who is a member of the NANC may prescribe as they consider appropriate - that is their prerogative and has no bearing on membership.

    Second, the advocacy of the NANC is based upon "perseverance of the saints" and as such they know that the Word and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer does not a smooth road make.

    They would NEVER use a "bait and switch" in counseling in which they would even question a person's declaration of faith - no matter the sin, frequency, ...

    Saved or not get the same empathic attention from the professional and aggressive biblically based therapy - saved or not. They are not there to judge a person's salvation - that is up to Christ.
     
  4. freeatlast

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    As usual you did not read my post or you have chosen to change my words.
    I said "they never advocate drugs as a way to resolve a behavior issue" Drugs mask the condition, they do not cure it and they never claim other drugs cure. As to NANC I would like to have you post a link to where they suggest using drugs as an organization. It is set up for Pastors to do proper biblical counseling. If some of the members push drugs I have no idea but at least back up your statement with proof.
    Finally and yes they do deal with the spiritual condition of the person and doing so is not judging.
     
    #4 freeatlast, May 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2012
  5. agedman

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    First, I didn't misread your post.

    I didn't say they "advocate drugs as a way to resolve a behavior issue." I stated they were not opposed to medical helps - which is NOT your view as you have posted. You have clearly taken the side that medicinal help is not only not a cure but not even an interim step so further help can be provided.



    Second, Statements such as, "All behavior issues are spiritual and stem from sin." is inflammatory in the least and I would support those who have shown in has little Scripture support. The statement itself is not biblical, for to take the statement at face value would include the behavior in which both Paul and Peter encouraged. They certainly did not support sin.

    The modification that all "inappropriate" behavior..., would also be problematic for then one would have to base exactly what behavior violates God's word. At that point there is problems long discussed on the forum.


    Third, I posted as to the authority of BOTH the NANC and the individual membership authority.

    You misrepresented what I posted about the NANC. The NANC is not JUST for pastors, but all professional counselors and even laymen who desire further instruction.

    Fourth, As far as judgement, what I stated was their dealing with the spiritual condition is done in a non-judgmental manner. It is basic training to nearly all counseling.
     
  6. 12strings

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    I would add a few items from my personal experience. (I have been through the 30-hour initial training series from NANC, and have read a few of the books by their authors, and my Senior Pastor is a NANC-certified counselor):

    1. It is generally standard practice by Nanc counselors to ask when the counselee last had a doctor's physical, and if they have not had one in several years, that is one of their first recomendations.

    2. NANC does not advocate people to start drugs because they are not in the medical field. But they also do NOT train their counselors to tell people to get off of drugs, they train them to counsel a person whether or not they are on drugs, because that person can make God-pleasing choices either way.
     
  7. freeatlast

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    Show me where they support drugs as a way to deal with behavior instead of confession and forsaking. Also I am waiting for the scriptural reference to taking drugs to overcome a behavior problem.
     
  8. freeatlast

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    I thought you were about be on track, but You make one statement which makes the entire post incorrect. Here it is;
    "they train them to counsel a person whether or not they are on drugs, because that person can make God-pleasing choices either way"

    They never suggest that a person on drugs is making a God pleasing choice. Nor do they ever tell a person to turn to drugs. While it is true that they know some people will choose drugs over confession and forsaking and they seek to get that person to live an outward life while on the drugs they also know that drugs never deal with the real problem which can only be overcome by confession and forsaking.

    As to not telling people to get off drugs not being what they do, you are correct, but only because of legal reasons. They also never tell them to get on drugs either so it is a wash. What they do is counsel people to deal with the underlying problem which is sin and that takes confession and forsaking the sin and once that is done they will leave the drugs on their own.
     
  9. agedman

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    To "instruct" someone who has received training, yet show no indication of understanding what NANC believe and the training rigors for recognition as a certificate holder is appalling.


    Healing and helping medications are never mentioned in the scripture but in a positive such as Luke through Paul instructing Tim.

    The only Scripture condemnations are given to addictive substances in which no medical necessity or emotional turmoil (those who have no hope) is present.

    But you would deny to believer and unbeliever what God doesn't and call it righteous and claim those who, under medical necessity, take medications and call it sin.

    Again, I would caution you in proclaiming "sin" what might just be an extension of what God has approved.
     
  10. Steadfast Fred

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    Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in thy Paxil: for I shall yet extol it, the health of my countenance
     
    #10 Steadfast Fred, May 6, 2012
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  11. agedman

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    In each verse below, it shows the work of an drug-est, the use of medicinal tools, and in the combination with counsel.


    Exodus 30:25 And thou shall make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.

    Exodus 37:29 And he made the holy anointing oil, and the pure incense of sweet spices, according to the work of the apothecary.

    Proverbs 27:9 Ointment and perfume rejoice the heart: so doth the sweetness of a man's friend by hearty counsel. ​

    When Christ was on this earth, He being the "Great Physician" needed no "helps" to bring healing (except the clay and spit-all mentioned in one occasion) but that doesn't mean he did not use them.

    Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

    Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

    The apostle mentions that the gift of healing is given by God.

    1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. ​

    I see no problem with someone who is in sever depression being given help while at the same time Godly counsel is provided.

    If the believer's war is within the spiritual realm and not "flesh and blood" then why would you be so concerned about something that might just help the believer to strap on the whole armor of God?
     
  12. 12strings

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    -You may disagree with what Nanc teaches, but that doesn't make my statement of their teaching incorrect. The fact is, they trained people like me and others, that if we encounter someone who is already on psychotropic drugs, we should counsel them to take responsibility for their decisions and behaviors, and seek to bring those behaviors in line with obedience to God. If the person is on drugs when we come to see them, that's what they counsel them to do. If they are not, that's what we counsel them to do.



    Nanc counselors DO believe that a person who has been given drugs to take can make choices that please God even while still continuing their ridalin, or whatever drug it is, until such time as they speak to a real doctor about quitting it. So for example, a christian middle-schooler who takes ridalin because she finds it difficult to sit still when told to, or to listen to and obey her parents, CAN repent of that disobedience and begin to life in a way that pleases God...whether or not she is on ridalin or not. Once she begins to see that she can obey, even if its hard, The counselor may then advise the parents to have her doctor reevaluate the need for the drug, or he may recomend a doctor he knows who is not so free with drugs that aren't needed.

    As to not telling people to get off drugs not being what they do, you are correct, but only because of legal reasons. They also never tell them to get on drugs either so it is a wash. What they do is counsel people to deal with the underlying problem which is sin and that takes confession and forsaking the sin and once that is done they will leave the drugs on their own.
    [/QUOTE]

    Your last statement is correct, which is all I have been trying to say. I do think it is more than legal reasons...it is also that Nanc desires to train as many lay people as possible to give godly counsel in normal everyday situations...they do not see the need to also train those people to start telling people not to listen to their doctors.
     

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