From the "C-C's Really Agree" Thread

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, May 13, 2008.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    David Lamb,

    I brought this over from rip's thread so we wouldn't derail that with our discussion (which I didn't feel was concluded). Here is the post in question:

    Salvation obviates the need to "crucify Christ afresh" by repenting unto the justification of the soul but salvation activates the need to repent of each sin we find in ourselves unto the sanctification of our spirits (2Cor 7:9-11). Now I am aware that you have certain problems with that statement because Calvinists I've debated with don't see any distinction between soul and spirit which is also why they err regarding original sin. But we can discuss that if you think it would help you understand salvation better or in a new way.


    This IS the issue of soul vs spirit, David. The soul is dead but the means by which we can believe, the spirit, is most certainly alive! What Calvinism is basically assuming in their defintion of "spiritually dead" is that the lost person, like Lazarus, is soul dead and "brain dead," too!


    I know. As I told rip, I do try to "caricature" some facets of Calvinism in order to examine form and function. As I said above, a saved person does not need to "crucify Christ afresh" yet that is the ordo salutis that you attest to. You say that one must be regenerated/born again/saved in order to repent. In fact, Calvinism says that salvation is "unconditional" -- without any act on our part. How is it that you say that of course one must repent to be saved?

    On the other hand, if you are already saved, repenting would, indeed, seem to be crucifying Him afresh, no? Or else seem to be like Catholic confessional in that your intention is to quit sinning, not be saved.

    Why not believe it in the same manner in which you received salvation --- Your soul was dead - your not dead spirit (mind, emotions, will) heard God's Spirit - you repented from self and turned to Christ - you were regenerated by the Spirit/saved! Isn't that what Peter said would happen? Repent, be baptized, receive the Spirit (Acts 2:38-39)?

    skypair
     
  2. MB

    MB
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    Our only enablement is the convincing of the Holy Spirit. Calvinist believe they can't believe unless they are regenerated first. Yet regeneration is being saved. If this is so then men who hold the truth in unrighteousness are saved men on their way to hell.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    There are many who believe in Christ and refuse to submit to Him.

    Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    MB
     
  3. donnA

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    I guess the question is, where does faith come from, us, or the Holy Spirit? De we manufacture our own faith, or is it a gift from God through the Holy Spirit. If indeed it is a gift from God, then we must have the indwelling Holy Spirit to recieve it. Unless we make it up on our own.
    God is soverign, even over our faith.
     
  4. MB

    MB
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    The idea that God must indwell a person in order for them to have faith isn't in scripture. For instance the men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
    Rom. 1:18
    They aren't saved and yet they know the truth. Many sit in out churches today. The evidence is there inability to tell there neighbors about Christ
    Their inability to live a Christian life and this isn't only in reformed churches, it's in every denomination there is.
    I believe men aren't saved by there faith but the faith of Jesus Christ.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    We do have our own faith as the underline states though you are right that faith is a gift from God. We receive our faith by hearing the gospel and if we will listen we will be come convinced. Faith is being convinced enough to believe it.
    The gospel is the work of God. The preacher preaching it is the work of God. That you believe is the work of God all man does is listens. Listening doesn't save us but it does give us faith. Our faith is only the hope of Salvation and not Salvation it self. We are drawn, We are chosen. both the work of God. We are convinced and convicted that we might be Justified.
    A man is a sinful creature and still is after Salvation the major difference is the man with Salvation is Spiritually alive.( or separated from God)
    Man doesn't come to God on his own, it isn't because he is unable to. It's because he has no knowledge of Salvation or even what he would be saved from. This is the reason for the gospel, preachers, and missionaries,and these are all the work of God.
    Freewill decisions are to choose sin only even after we are saved will still choose to sin. Rejection of Christ is sin. With Salvation there is a change of heart there is now a very accute conscience and the man becomes concerned with his sin and ask God to forgive him on a regular bases while learning to escape the temptation of sin. Spiritually we obey God Physcially we sin.
    Calvainist believe man is unable and he is with out knowledge but this is as far as his inabilities go. Man is able to hear. Act 28:28. Listening is a matter of man being willing to listen some aren't because they love darkness more than the light.
    MB

     
  5. MB

    MB
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    P.S.
    If we are saved at all it's because Jesus Christ wanted to save us not because it's something we want.
    MB
     
  6. canadyjd

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    I think you are misunderstanding "calvinism" again, and confusing terms.

    It is God's Grace that is "unconditional". Grace means "unmerited favor".

    Salvation is "conditional" (though I don't like the way you are trying to use (abuse) the word) on the movement of Holy Spirit upon a person in regeneration, conviction of sin, and "drawing" to the person of Jesus Christ.

    Each and every person on whom the Spirit so moves will, without fail, respond to Holy Spirit's work in their lives with repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

    The salvation, therefore, is appropriated by faith in Jesus Christ. At that point, Holy Spirit is indwells the believer.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  7. Rippon

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    Who in the world are the C-C's SP? Do you mean the N'C's ( non-Calvinists ) ? Or is it possibly a brand-new designation ?
     
  8. skypair

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    Do you really want the answer or are you merely posing your objections.

    Here's the paradigm I believe the Bible gives us: Our souls are "dead" to God because of sin BUT our spirits (mind, emotions, wills) are still "alive" to every and any idea that is presented through physical hearing and seeing.

    What do we do with the "idea" of the gospel of Christ? Our spirits "process" it intellectually and emotionally --- God's Spirit communicating with our spirits --- and we CHOOSE to BELIEVE or disbelieve. How many times have you heard the verse "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved?" So at this point, you don't have faith yet (faith is proof of what one believes) -- you don't have the regeneration of the Holy Spirit yet (only the Word and the understanding of what it says) -- you don't have salvation yet.

    But the Word does say this if you believe: "RECEIVE" or "REPENT" Generally, both are the same idea of turning from self to receive God and Christ as Lord and Savior. Many call this the "application of biblical truth to one's personal situation." How? What the heart believes is then confessed with the mouth, Rom 10:9-10, etal. "Repent, be baptized (apply the Spirit, the "water" of the Word), and receive the Spirit" (a new heart) as Peter said at Pentecost, Acts 2:38.

    Then what you receive -- what is termed the "grace" given of God -- is all received at once: 1) faith, the proof of belief, comes by the palpable receiving of the Holy Sirit to live in us; 2) etenal life of the soul; 3) salvation of the spirit progressively until the "day of Christ" and perfectly and eternally thereafter; 4) the new body of "terrestrial" glory, our evidence of that future body of "celestial" glory; 5) "adoption" into the family and fellowship of God; 6) spiritual gifts (listed in 1Cor 12:7-11); 7) access to God in prayer; and others may be able to add to the list.

    So yes, technically "regeneration precedes faith" just as Calvinist's aver. And all these "gifts" precede or is received immediately with regeneration. But there is a point prior to regeneration that the "covenant" -- the "new covenant" -- is understood and entered into by the wills of both parties. :praying:

    skypair
     
  9. skypair

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    There is much to be misunderstood, isn't there. :laugh: For instance...

    God gives "unmerited favor" only to the saved. The rest get only "mercy" -- they don't get what they deserve. And this simple explanation of it that you use makes grace conditional upon salvation, right?

    OK, you're making progress.[/quote] "Regeneration" of a person means INDWELLING of that person with the life/Spirit of God. To say one is "born again of the Spirit" before one is convicted of sin is to put the cart before the horse. "Conviction of sin" is what you call "common grace" --- given to all mankind, "the world," John 16:8-9. And it's not really "grace" if it is "common" and does not "favor" one over against another. And Jesus said, "I will draw ALL men unto me." So in this we see that the gospel is not a "favor" but a promise -- so much so that God says that even the heathen are "without excuse."

    "Particular grace," right? And, of course, it is true that the saved will continue to respond in faith and repentance throughout their earthly lives.

    I like the way you distinguish "upon whom the Holy Spirit moves" from "indwells." The Spirit is certainly WITH us prior to salvation and this is the "free will" model in which "drawing" means "persuading". It is the "free will" model, not Calvinism, that says that, as a result of this "drawing," we still must personally appropriate Christ by trusting in Him before we will be regenerated/indwelt.

    In the Calvinist model, it seems to me that "drawing" means "indwelling" or, even more so, "possession." It seems so because, as with demon possession, the "regenerate" person does irresistibly (and without much thought of his own) what is not of his own will to do.

    And it further seems that we enter into the "new covenant" (spiritual life)unconditionally whereas it is clear to me that we must enter in by the blood of Christ.

    What you and I have is a basically different useages of terminology.

    skypair
     
  10. canadyjd

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    First, that is your explanation, not mine. Salvation is conditional upon the Grace of God, not versa vice.
    No, that is not what I am saying. Regeneration, calling, drawing, conviction of sins, etc., are works of Holy Spirit in the life of a person.

    The "indwelling" of Holy Spirit comes with the appropriation of salvation by faith, which follows the work of Holy Spirit in regeneration.
    Thank you. I am only repeating the scriptural model, however.
    I havn't heard that "free-will" model expressed in such a way. Do you mean the "will" of a person is being influenced by an outside entity, that is Holy Spirit, in a positve way?

    If only you could see that the "will" of a person is controlled/influenced by sin in a negative way to such an extent they will not even desire the things of God or be able to understand the truth of their condition of separation from God, without the intervention of Holy Spirit in regeneration.
    I prefer the term "effectual calling" to "irresistable grace", just so misunderstandings such as you have do not occur.

    God's efforts in "calling/drawing" a person to Christ are effective each and every time He does it. The method He uses, through the power of Holy Spirit in regeneration, conviction of sin, repentace and faith, makes it 100% effective.
    In reading your posts, I have often felt like you were speaking a different language.:laugh: If the words we use have different meanings for each of us, there is no chance of communication.

    The words in scripture do have specific meaning, however.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  11. skypair

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    We'll discuss this.

    You wouldn't believe how long I have been trying to convince Calvinists that calling, drawing, conviction of sin, etc. are NOT the regeneration the Bible talks about!! Regneration as they use it is a misnomer. Regeneration is "born again" -- saved -- indwelt by the quickening Spirit -- the Spirit IN us -- "spiritual man."

    Most Calvies I know will not agree with you that the Holy Spirit works from without the elect to call, draw, convict, persuade, etc. unto salvation. For them, regeneration is a whole change of the heart (as salvation is) so that one can hear and understand spiritual things and not be driven alone by the natural impulse only to sin.

    Yes, this is what I believe. You merely misuse the term regeneration to mean "persuade from without" rather than what regeneration really means -- "save from within."

    Yes.

    So your sotierology teaches, anyway. The truth of the matter is that 1) the Calvinist model knows nothing of the distinction between soul and spirit; 2) therefore, if one is "dead" spiritually, there is nothing in that person to communicate "life" to; 3) therefore, God has to give "life" to the person by indwelling them with His Spirit before they can be saved --- they must be spiritually born just to hear the gospel!

    Of course, such a view works perfectly with predestination, total soveriegnty, unconditional election, irresistible grace, their version of sin nature, etc. But it doesn't work so good with human responsibility, the fact that no man is "brain dead," understanding God's omniscience, understanding God's hand in sin, etc.

    Again, that is the "pat" answer that let's God be omnipotent and totally sovereign -- except why doesn't He do it all the time?? Was Satan right in Eden? Is God witholding something good from most people in the earth?

    Exactly! But who has the different vocabulary? I use biblical terms, not Calvin's terms. I use biblical definitions, not Calvinism's. Why don't we get away from the Calvinist paradigm long enough to see if its notions even make sense regarding what we KNOW of scripture? Calvinism makes a "mousetrap" out of the Bible. It's hard to get the true "cheese" out without getting snapped in a Calvinist "trap" theological!

    skypair
     
  12. HisServant

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    Where is this hombre that wants to go to hell?
     

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