From the mothers womb

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by psalms109:31, Jul 20, 2013.

?

Is that person saved

Poll closed Jul 30, 2013.
  1. This is universalism

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  2. No

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  3. Yes

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  4. Not sure

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  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    If one is told that they were saved for nothing they did and they were chosen before the foundation of the world chosen in the mothers womb. They believed it walked off and lived their life as they did believeing this will they be saved?
     
  2. HankD

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    Like John the Baptist?

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

    HankD​
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Who is the mothers womb. Is it our natural mother?

    I believe it is our spiritual mother not our natural mother.

    We must be reborn, born again.

    John 3:7
    You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

    Matthew 11:14
    And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

    Luke 1:17
    And he will go on before the Lord, in the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
     
    #3 psalms109:31, Jul 20, 2013
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  4. preacher4truth

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    There is absolutely nothing in Scripture about our 'spiritual mother'.

    As to your OP, not at all. This I mean in answer to your 'do they just walk off and live their lives as they did' (which implies no change, repentance &).

    What does Scripture say? John 10:27 'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me'. Your hypothesis doesn't match revealed truth about His elect.
     
  5. annsni

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    We cannot decide that - only God can.

    If a person is chosen by God, there will be a life that testifies to that.

    If the life does not testify to that, how can we say that God has chosen them?

    Scripture tells us that we will be known by our fruit. Bad fruit = not saved, Good fruit = saved. It is not the fruit that saves us but like breathing signifies life in a person, so does good fruit signify life as well.
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    I agree. Unfortunately a recent pastor we know rebuked us for believing this and caused several people to leave his church due to his easy believism theology and his uproars of anger.
     
  7. psalms109:31

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    I praise God His sheep are the ones who listen, This is for my own personal clarification on what i call the bacon belief system, see how many fallen into it.
     
    #7 psalms109:31, Jul 20, 2013
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  8. psalms109:31

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    I also see myself as who i really am

    As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

    I wasn't His sheep i was a dog who begged at His table and He included with His own and treats me as one of His own.Until we see our selves as we truely are we will never come to the whole truth we are dead in sin. We must repent ( turn to God through Jesus Christ) to live. Then listen and learn, we don't have to know anything to turn to Jesus and learn from Him and we will find rest for our souls
     
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  9. HankD

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    OK, good thought, but it doesn't seem to me that this passage should be spiritualized in light of the context.

    And in fact almost any passage can be made into something different by this method of "spiritualization" although what you say has some merit.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
    #9 HankD, Jul 20, 2013
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  10. HankD

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    A life can be useless to God and without reward and yet still be the life of a child of God.

    1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


    HankD
     
  11. psalms109:31

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    John the Baptist is Elijah then we see Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus in the transfiguration. He came in the spirit and power of Elijah, tells me we should spiritualize it.

    We must be born again.

    Psalm 51:5
    Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

    Numbers 11:
    10 Moses heard the people of every family wailing at the entrance to their tents. The Lord became exceedingly angry, and Moses was troubled. 11 He asked the Lord, “Why have you brought this trouble on your servant? What have I done to displease you that you put the burden of all these people on me? 12 Did I conceive all these people? Did I give them birth? Why do you tell me to carry them in my arms, as a nurse carries an infant, to the land you promised on oath to their ancestors? 13 Where can I get meat for all these people? They keep wailing to me, ‘Give us meat to eat!’ 14 I cannot carry all these people by myself; the burden is too heavy for me. 15 If this is how you are going to treat me, please go ahead and kill me—if I have found favor in your eyes—and do not let me face my own ruin.”
     
  12. HankD

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    Notice I said "almost any passage"

    However, I'm sure someone could spiritualize this one - Moses represents Israel, etc, etc...

    In addition, its easier to spiritualize a passage when one puts in (or compares it to) another context rather than the one where it is presently found.

    Its a speculation, perhaps a worthy one, but you cannot prove it from scripture.

    HankD
     
  13. psalms109:31

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    I just showing who is the womb Elijah in the spirit and power of. I can't make it plainer. I know we must be born again and become the new creation. So the old is gone and the new has come in. We need a new heart. I know only Jesus can do that. His word had started the change in me and where I have been molded and formed into the new creation.

    I does have a part of the equation we are responsible, when you take I out they change our testimoney into theirs

    Psalm 119:105
    [ נ Nun ] Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

    I Have not forgotten my salvation and the means God used to change me. This is my experience and I don't need men to change my witness. I don't let man made doctrine to change my testimony.
     
    #13 psalms109:31, Jul 20, 2013
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  14. preacher4truth

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    This doesn't support the contention of the OP that a person can hear, then walk off as a believer and live how they want to live which is what you are arguing.

    Ann and myself have both contended that the life will bear fruit or evidence of regeneration. You are using Scripture to combat such a Biblical notion. In addition, the context of 1 Corinthians 3 isn't supporting your premise by any means.
     
  15. preacher4truth

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    OK. I have no clue as to your 'bacon belief system'.

    Now, back to the 'spiritual mother' concept you propagated. Do you have Scripture for this or did you make a mistake? I see you avoided addressing it when I responded to your usage of it.
     
  16. psalms109:31

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    We must be born again, this is not done through our natural mother.

    We don't crawl back into our natural mothers womb do we.

    I was born again by His word.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    People don't want to hear they must become a new creation they want to believe they are already, but it is the new creation that is chosen before the foundation of the world not the old man.

    Paul told believers they were chosen before the foundation of the world not unbelievers
     
    #16 psalms109:31, Jul 20, 2013
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  17. preacher4truth

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    Oh boy. :wavey:

    That is your proof for having a spiritual mother?
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    1. Bad People
    2. Already Elected
    3. Completely Atoned for
    4. Overwhelming called
    5. Never falling away

    That is BACON belief system
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Must be Born again or born from above not from here say's it all to me
     
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  20. preacher4truth

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    So that means we have a spiritual mother? Who is she? Where is the evidence?

    Your logic goes thus: We must be born again, and since we cannot enter our earthly mothers womb therefore we must enter the womb of our 'spiritual' mother (or there must be a spiritual mother somewhere).

    Your logic doesn't quite wash, is pure sentimentalism and is therefore simply not Scriptural.
     
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