Future or past event?????

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, Aug 11, 2003.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Matthew 23:
    34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
    35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    Is this a future prophecy or a past event?
     
  2. Tim

    Tim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2001
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see how this could happen to anyone but Jews in a very strictly religious society. How else would members of a synagogue be persecuting the saints?

    Tim
     
  3. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Maybe it's both. God's word is perfect in every way, maybe just maybe the past holds the keys to the future. Afterall we humans do tend to repeat the same mistakes over and over again .
     
  4. Tim

    Tim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2001
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lea,

    I know that "both" is a popular view when Christians discuss difficult prophecies. But doesn't it seem strange that when you hold that view you're assuming that synagogues could again become as powerful and wicked as they were in Christ's time? And that God would send prophets to them again? And some prophets would be crucified?

    It's too deja vu all over again to me.

    Tim
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    CAN'T have been "past". What was the other option? :D

    Why not? Jews in the Roman Empire were not allowed to crucify ANYONE, ANY TIME. Not one recorded in history.

    Yet in this passage that is one of the KEY events that is going to happen!

    Think the Tribulation will involve a "revival" of extreme Judaism (Menachem Begin type) where such killing, beatings, whippings will be commonplace.
     
  6. Gunther

    Gunther
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe Matthew 23 is past and that the destruction of the temple and all the killing that went with it were because of what Christ said in Matthew 23.

    What bearing does this have on prophecy for today?
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    I believe Matthew 23 is past and that the destruction of the temple and all the killing that went with it were because of what Christ said in Matthew 23.

    Matt. 23 Jesus tells the Pharasies what they did and will do to the prophets and His disciples.

    Here in Matt. 10 Jesus is telling His Disciples what the Pharasies will do to them.

    23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

    So, did the son of man come?
     
  8. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Be careful about the meaning of the word 'generation' here. I don't have time to give all the biblical references, but generation, today, has a much more narrow meaning than it used to. Today it refers to either those contemporaneous with one another or is a direct reference to a parent/child relationship. At least two other meanings were known in Hebrew culture. The first was somewhat similar to social class -- a particular group of people regardless of any given time. The second was a particular number of years, be it forty, seventy, one hundred, or more (depended on the context).

    So when Jesus was saying that 'this generation' or 'your generation', there could be a meaning involved that we don't normally associate with the word. Since Jesus referred specifically to the Pharisees and teachers of the law here, the meaning may well include all Pharisees and teachers of the law from that time forward...
     
  9. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
    "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -Matthew 10:23

    "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." -Matthew 23:34-36

    It is apparent to any serious student of the scriptures Jesus was referring to the generation in which He lived, not some generation 2,000+ years in the future as the Scofield tribe entertains. Matthew 10:23 can be readily interpreted in conjunction with Luke 20:16, "He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others." Read Malachi 3.
     
  10. Tim

    Tim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2001
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    0
    Certainly the Jews used the Romans to get their "criminals" crucified. So I think we're being a little nitpicky to say it could thus not be talking about the past.

    As far as the meaning of "generation", if I could see a clear instance elsewhere in Scripture where it doesn't mean the people of that time or a certain period of time, perhaps I'd be willing to concede the more general definition as a possible interpretation. But then would it still refer to "pharisees"? So pharisees will be back in power too?

    Tim
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Nitpicking? Never have an example of the Jews crucifying or getting someone crucified, save our precious Lord.

    Never. Just show me examples from history where this happened and I'll hush up. (All Jewish execution of Christians was by stoning or clubbing).

    I'll wait.
     
  12. Tim

    Tim
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2001
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    0
    What more needs to be said, other than to quote you, "save our precious Lord."

    I think that one counts.

    Tim
     
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Acts 2. 36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

    The Romans physically crucified Him, but Luke says it was the Jews. In like manner they crucified Peter. Are you suggesting that you have to physically committ the act to be responsible for it?
     
  14. micahaaron

    micahaaron
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2003
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kill: Saul of Tarsus and his Pharisee group killed Stephen. James, brother of John, was put in prison by the Jews, died.

    Crucify: Peter and some other apostles or disciples in Foxes Book of Martyrs.

    Scourge/Persecute: Saul of Tarsus

    The Pharisees and Saducees of Jesus's generation took the brunt of the curse of verse 35. Though certainly, if we have modern-day pharisees in any evangelical camp, I'm sure Jesus will do the same to us as well.

    MA
     
  15. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2002
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it is past. It refered to Jesus and the the Apostles and Christians after him as well as those who stood before them.

    The blood that came upon them I think speaks of the fall of Jerusalem when many Jews were slaughtered and throughout the Dispora(hope I am spelling that right).

    Just my two cents.

    IFBReformer
     
  16. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2002
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Bob,

    I do think the 'crucify' from this passage had to do specifaclly with Jesus Christ. We don't have to show any other examples. The rest could have been 'killed' as the passage indicates in many other ways such as Stephen being stoned.

    IFBReformer
     

Share This Page

Loading...