Gifts of the Spirit have ceased?????????

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ONENESS, May 7, 2002.

  1. ONENESS

    ONENESS
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    I would rather attest to the power of God, as He uses His Spirit through the Word of God. I do not put my faith in experiences, but rather the Word of God. The gifts of the Spirit, as witnessed today, are not the same as they were in the days of the Apostles. You might say they are forgeries. Satan works miracles too.

    DHK

    Prove this please
     
  2. atestring

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    It can't be proven!!!
    I have recently read a book by Eddie Hyatt entitled
    "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" that shows historically that Gifts of the Holy Spirit have been in every era of history since the day of Pentecost.
    Let me challenge people to do something.
    Ask The "OLDEST" active BAptist Church members you can find, if they have ever seen miraculous healings?
    ASk Them If they have ever seen a person shout or run around the building in a "Baptist Church or meeting place", then ASK them if they remember their Parents and Grandparents talking about such things happening in Baptist churches.
    ASk if they have seen Gifts of the Holy Spirit in a church service.
    You might find some their answers to be interesting.

    [ May 07, 2002, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: atestring ]
     
  3. Briguy

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    I am pretty sure that DHK was referring to Miracles, healing, tongues and interpretation of tongues. I doubt he sees helps and other service gifts as being much different. And since he teaches he problay doesn't have a problem with teaching/preaching gifts either.

    If you don't have a grasp on what a gift is you will never understand them. I have a question. When we exercise our God given spiritual gift is the power to exercise it within us or does God give us the power at the moment we use the gift?

    The answer to that question is of vital importance.

    In Love and Truth,
    Brian
     
  4. Frank

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    Oneness:
    I concur about trusting God's word. It is the word that is truth, not the miraculous indowments of the Holy Spirit. The miraculous power of the Holy Spirit as seen in the first centruy has ceased. These miralces were for the purpose of confirming the message.( Mk.16:20). A man who claimed to speak under the inspiration of the Holy Spitit verified this by performing miracles.( II Cor.12:12). There were some who claimed they were apostles, who had this power, tried and found to be liars.(Rev. 2:2).
    If one believes in the miraculous endowments he must provide the proof.(I Thes. 5:21). If one had what they had they can do what they did. However, we do not see this at all. Men are not raised from the dead, the blind do not see as a result of spittle being put in their eyes, the lame do not walk by being told to do so. In short, to claim thing is not to prove it. God demands we prove it! ( I Thes. 5:21).
    Genuine Biblical Miracles defied the natruallaws of man. We simply do not see it because the word has been confirmed. God has given us the greatest evidence his WORD. ( Jn, 20:30,31).
    Frank
     
  5. Don

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    Oneness, I believe I can prove it with one passage from the book of Acts 8:
    This is what we know about Phillip: Acts 6:3,5 tell us he was of honest report, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. We know he was a great preacher (Acts 8). We know from Acts 8:6 that he did miracles.

    But yet, even though he set aright the teachings of Simon the sorcerer, and people were saved and baptized, it was still the apostles who had to lay hands on the people so they could receive the Holy Ghost.

    If the spiritual gifts were for more than the apostles--as in, for the church today--then why wasn't Phillip able to lay hands on people, and through him, imbue them with the Holy Ghost?

    PART 2 OF THIS QUESTION

    Oneness, your original challenge is ambiguous. First, you must define the spiritual gifts. Exactly what are they? Are we talking about the gifts listed in Romans 12? Or the ones in 1 Corinthians 12? Or the ones in Ephesians 4? Or all of the above? Or none of the above?

    Specifically define what it is you want us to disprove, so that we can then set about doing so.
     
  6. ONENESS

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    You should ask DHK that question.
     
  7. DocCas

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    Proving the miraculous sign gifts have ceased is very easy. The problem is that so many who think of themselves as being "Christians" just refuse to believe what the bible clearly says.

    Paul wrote, in 1 Corinthians 13:8, "tongues shall cease."

    The time of that is revealed in verse 9, "when the perfect comes the imperfect will pass away."

    He then says, quite clearly, in verse 13, "Now these three remain . . ." Note he does NOT say "these six remain . . ." And the three he lists as remaining, faith, hope and love. No "tongues." No "prophecy." And no "knowledge."

    God said it, Paul recorded it. Now all you have to do is repent of your unbelief and accept what God has said!
     
  8. Don

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    Actually, Brian, I want to hear your answer.

    I also notice that I got no response regarding the answer I gave you; does that mean you capitulate and agree that there's a problem with your stance?

    I'd also like DHK to answer as well.

    And then I'd really, really like to see a response to what Dr. Cassidy posted.

    [ May 07, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  9. DHK

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    1 Corinthians 12,13, and 14 are three chapters that discuss spiritual gifts. The spiritual gifts are listed in chapter 12, in verses 4 to 11, and again in verses 28 to 30. One thing you might note about the list given at the end of chapter 12, is that the gifts are given in order of importance. "First apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that..." Look at which gift is placed last in this list. The gift of tongues, which Pentecostals and Charismatics place the greatest importance, Paul says, are the least important of all the gifts. In verses 29 and 30, by asking a series of rhetorical questions, he clearly demonstrates that all the spiritual gifts, including tongues, are not for everybody. Tongues were not for everyone. In verse 31 he says covet or desire the best gifts, which definitely were not tongues, and then proceeds to show them a more excellent way, a way that is better than all the spiritual gifts put together, and that is the way of love. Chapter 13 is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible, written on love.

    In chapter 14 we have a comparison of prophecy and tongues, a comparison of that which we can understand and that which we cannot. Any person objectively reading this chapter will see that Paul is telling the Corinthian believers reasons not to speak in tongues. In contrast he gives reasons for prophecy or what could even be considered the equivalent of preaching. At any rate it was that which could be understood and was edifying to the church, as opposed to tongues which were not.

    1 Corinthians 13 delineates three types of gifts: permanent, semi-permanent, and temporary. The gifts of the spirit were only meant to be temporary gifts. They are listed in verses 12:4-11, and three examples of them are given in 13:8: prophecies, tongues, and knowledge (i.e., revelatory knowledge). Charity (love) never ceases. It is a permanent gift. It will last forever.

    13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
    ---Out of these three gifts only love will last forever. It is the greatest gift. It is the permanent gift. But what about faith and hope. How long will they last?

    2Cor.5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
    ---When Jesus comes we will no longer need faith for we shall see Him as He is. For now we walk by faith.

    Rom.8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    ---When Jesus comes, who is our hope, we will no longer need hope. Our hope will be fulfilled in Him. We hope for that we see not. When he come we will see him.
    Thus faith and hope are semi-permanent gifts that will end with the coming of Christ. Love will never cease. It alone will endure forever. It is a permanent gift.

    Now what about prophecies, tongues, and revelatory knowledge, and the rest of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12:4-11.
    1Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    ---Prophecies shall fail.
    ---Tongues shall cease.
    ---Knowledge (revelatory) shall pass away.
    We know these things happened. The question is when. I believe the context of the chapter gives us the answer. I also believe that history verifies it.

    1Cor. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    Paul says we know in part. We, that is he and the Corinthians believers, at that time, knew in part. They knew part of the Bible, not the whole. They had the Old Testament Scriptures, and maybe one or two books of the New Testament like Matthew or James which were written early. They knew in part. One of the reasons these spiritual gifts were given were to provide necessary revelation to the church at that time when the New Testament was not yet complete. "We know in part," he says, and therefore, "we prophesy in part." God has given some this ability because the New Testament was not yet complete.

    1 Cor. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    "When that which is perfect is come." The Old English word "perfect" means "complete." When the Word of God is complete, then that which is "in part," (all the temporary gifts, the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12:4-11) shall be done away. They will have no more use. Their purpose will have been fulfilled. The pronoun "that," in the expression "that which is perfect" is in the neuter gender in the Greek. It cannot refer to Christ or His coming which is masculine. It must refer to the Word of God which is described elsewhere as being perfect. We have a perfect Word, a completed revelation. It was completed about 96 A.D. with the Book of Revelation. History attests that at the end of the first century the miraculous gifts of the spirit ceased to be.
    1Corinthians 14 also gives further reasons why tongues in specific is not for today.
    DHK
     
  10. Sularis

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    Personal experience - I spoke and understood a foreign language in order to reveal Gospel truth on a missions trip. This was in front of a dozen witnesses.

    If that aspect of tongues has not ceased - then prophecy has not ceased.

    Temporary gifts meant that no one healed, prophesied, spoke in tongues 100% of the time. That they came and went as the Spirit led while still being under the subjection of the host - well in the case of prophecy.

    The gifts of prophecy and such are not to cease until that which is perfect is come - People argue that that is the Word of God - the Bible - I submit that it in actuality is the WORD OF GOD - that it is Jesus Christ. And that is His second coming - be that the Rapture - or perhaps the Millenial Kingdom - or perhaps the New Heaven and New Earth. But they have not ceased now since I have CLEARLY myself experienced both the gift of interpretation and tongues. I interpreted false doctrine in another language I knew not - and spoke in English to correct it - but they heard it in their own language; and the missionary heard me speak it in their language as well, but I spoke in English.

    I appreciate the cessationist views - but notice the next verse in 1Cor 14:1 - which to me seems to indicate to me that LOVE is the foundation of the gifts. The prophesy in part isnt actually referring to the Scripture but the fact that prophesy is a mere shadow of what will be in heaven.
     
  11. Don

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    I'm understanding you to say that you spoke a previously unknown language, understood by the unbelievers present, and not some "spirit language."

    You catching that, Brian and MEE?

    [ May 08, 2002, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  12. ONENESS

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    Yes Don, Loud and clear, That would be the Gift of Tongues, notice there was an interpreter.

    He that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto man but unto God.

    There is a diffrence

    That which is Perfect: THE "WORD" OF GOD

    That is awesome.

    [ May 08, 2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     
  13. Briguy

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    Sularis, Whenever I hear stories like yours I am very skeptical. Almost, if not all, stories like yours are made up or get twisted to make a point. If what you say happened really happened it was a miracle of God, not the "gift of tongues". On the other hand it could be a trick of Satan. Anyway, gifts are given to us by God to use when we want, not just at times when God gives us a jolt of his power. Have you ever heard a preacher stand up and say he wanted to preach but God didn't power his gift today so he couldn't. what about someone with the service gift of helping someone. Would they call someone they were supposed to help move and say I planned on helping but can't because God did not activate my gift. Gifts then and now are used at our discreation. A person with the real gift of tongues could speak in a foreign language at will.

    The Gift of Tongues was used in the begining of the early church as a sign to the jews. The sign pointed to the scattering of the jews. When that happened the sign ended. That is clear in scripture.

    Also, using the gift was easy. When a person of a foreign language came into a gathering of believers, a person with the gift, known by all, would share the gospel with them in their language. Left like that the rest of the gathering would not be edified so an interprter (gift of tongue interpretation) would interpret the message given by the person with the gift of tongues, therfore the whole gathering would be edified, which fulfills 1 Cor. 12:7 that says gifts are for the edification of the whole body.

    Sularis, You may have experienced a miracle, but not the gift of tongues.

    In Christ,
    Brian

    [ May 08, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]
     
  14. ONENESS

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    So what you are saying is, if someone had the "Gift of Tongues" He could use it whenever he wanted? That means all he had to do was go To the streets of a diffrent contry and speak in tongues just b/c he wanted to. That is not scipture.

    Do you think if some one had the gift of prophesy he could stand up and prophesy anytime he wanted? Why did the prophets have to wait on God?

    Um who was that gift given to? I think that would more likely be a fruit type thing. Never heard of someone haveing the gift of Helping.
     
  15. Lorelei

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    Ummm...ever read 1 Corinthians Chapter 12?

    KJV
    NIV
    ~Lorelei
     
  16. ONENESS

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    Opps left off the Gift of Helping someone move
     
  17. MEE

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    YEP! Sure did....thought it was great. :D

    PS, But I don't think you understood Don.

    MEE
     
  18. Lorelei

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    Are you now mocking the spiritual gifts? Do you have access to a list that details which are gifts of helps and which are not? Would you please share from your unlimited knowledge of scripture to tell us which is which?

    It is funny how we are not allowed to question your gift of tongues, because it is so real to you, yet you easily mock the gift of another without any scriptural basis to do so. Why are you able to do this? Is this the "spiritual" behavior one can expect when one is gifted with the Spirit? I would surely hope not!

    ~Lorelei
     
  19. Chemnitz

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    I sounds a lot like the problem Paul addressed in his letters to the Corinthians. Where they were apparently engaged in the same kinda of childishness
     
  20. Don

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    Actually, MEE, I know for a fact that it's you and Oneness that aren't understanding.

    What Sularis described was similar to Acts 2. What you and Oneness have described was "babbling."

    Now, Brian, you disappoint me greatly. You're apparently not even familiar with the different gifts described.

    I'm going to tell you something that I've told you before: You've learned more just by posting on this board than you have from your Oneness Pentecostal church. That tells me that your church is basing its doctrine on feelings, and wants you to base your christianity on feelings, rather than actual study of the Word.

    Think on it for a while. Pray about it.
     

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