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Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Aug 31, 2002.

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  1. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Do they love you???

    Especially that coonhound. [​IMG]
     
    #41 ForumChaplain, Sep 3, 2002
  2. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    My understanding at this time is that Calvinism and Arminism is pretty much intergrated into the protestant denomonations.

    How does one find a Calvinistic Church???
     
    #42 ForumChaplain, Sep 10, 2002
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Here is one place: www.founders.org/misc/chlist.html

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
    #43 KenH, Sep 11, 2002
  4. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    You all have had a fairly thorough discussion of the topic, and I think Ken has represented the Calvinistic position quite well. I would pose this question to you, Chappie - Where did your faith come from? Is faith itself a gift? See 2 Thessalonians 3:2; Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 2:8.

    Rev. G
     
    #44 Rev. G, Sep 16, 2002
  5. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    We have true revelation, totally uninfluenced by man. This is the most unproductive circular argument that has ever found its way onto a theological discussion board. It solves nothing, no body believes it except the one proclaiming it. Ken, Ken, Ken… I have come to expect more than this of you. You were doing so well.

    If you truely have waht you think that you have, show it to me....

    Give me scriptural evidence of God electing one single person to salvation. One scripture that says, "Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, Moses, Elijah, Enoch; this day have i elected you to be saved.

    We and us, will not do it, that could mean anybody, as it names nobody...
     
    #45 ForumChaplain, Sep 16, 2002
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Your watered down view of Calvinism comes because logic doesn't allow for God to damn the majority of His populations of all time.

    I attended a Calvinistic seminary in Philadelphia and let me inform you to the real truth that some Calvinists still believe and teach 'double predestination.' Generalizing your personal views is not in alignment with reality or what other Christians believe. Sorry . . . [​IMG]
     
    #46 Ray Berrian, Sep 16, 2002
  7. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Ken has done an excellant and sincere job of explaining Calvinism to me. His explanations are more scriptural than most.

    This is not the only board where I am involved in discussions of Calvinism. Some on this board accuse me of misrepresenting Calvinism, not so. Basically all i have been doing is presenting for scrutiny here, what other calvinist are saying in other places. At present, i am somewhat amazed at how angry one calvinist get's when i present another Calvinist's position to them..

    I am but a conduit, trying to learn.

    ((((( Where did I get my faith? )))))
    I, personally am not a salvation by works kinda person, that's foolish.

    My faith is of God. My problem is trying to understand why some people believe that God is not impartial with the gift of faith. What in God's eyes qualifies two people, no difference in them that god will recognize as merit; yet one is supposedly chosen for heaven, while the other is condemned to hell. Why does God love one and hate the other before they are even conceived in the womb. I am not willing to ceed it to the mystery of his will as easily as some seem to be.

    God commands that we love one another, even our enemies we are commanded to love. I am somewhat amazed at the appearent lack of compassion demonstrated by most Calvinist for those that are lost. They seem to have relegated them to being things rather than human beings. I even had one Calvinist say to me, as long as i'm saved; who cares...

    My heart is continually heavy for those that are lost. Do not ask me if I think that I am holier than God. I am reminded that I cannot even love Christ until i love them. The love that i have for my neighbors is the measuring stick of my love for Christ. Most Calvinist just seem to be happy in their own supposed salvation, go over the posts of Calvinist in this thread, find me one thought of compassion for those that are lost....

    Sincerely, I believe that something is wrong...
    From my experience, Calvinism appears to produce head knowledge that does not touch the heart. Search for the word love in Calvinist rethoric, you will seldom find it. You will find power, soverginty, election, predestination, ordination. for calvinism, every thing has to be of God. Seems to me that they have forgotten that God does not love for them...

    They post passages where God hardened Pharoah's heart, created vessels fit for destruction, chose some, and left the rest to hell. God drew the elect. Hated the sinner. Seldom if ever do they post John 3:16. I fear such a God, I do not believe that he would choose to save me... And i can do nothing to entice him to do so...

    Although my words may not be true for you, nevertheless they are true for me. How can we change this perception...

    [ September 17, 2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #47 ForumChaplain, Sep 16, 2002
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    I have been around Calvinism all my life. My parents were Calvinistic, the churches I grew up in were Calvinistic, the church I attend now has many Calvinistic members. The Calvinism represented by Ken and Pastor Larry and many others on this board is mainstream Calvinism. It is the Calvinism of all the great Calvinistic preachers and teachers of the past, the Calvinism of the confessions, the Calvinism of most of the Calvinistic authors today.

    What you are running into, I suspect, is perhaps something close to hypercalvinism masquerading as calvinism. There has been an upsurge in calvinism in the last few years, and some eager new calvinists go overboard and get pretty stinkin' close to the heresy of hypercalvinism, and need correcting, perhap. I don't really know. But anyway, I have never met a Calvinist who believed the things you are saying Calvinists believe, and believe me, I have met and discussed with a whole slew of Calvinists over the years.

    But don't take my word for it. Read the London Baptist Confession. Read a book explaining Calvinism by a Calvinistic author.
     
    #48 russell55, Sep 17, 2002
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Brother Chappie,

    Does that mean it makes it into the next edition of the Guinness Book of World Records? [​IMG]

    Ken

    [ September 17, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #49 KenH, Sep 17, 2002
  10. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Brother Chappie,

    Does that mean it makes it into the next edition of the Guinness Book of World Records? [​IMG]

    Ken    </font>[/QUOTE]Dunno, have to take a look.
    Ken:
    You are the only Calvinist on this board that to this point has been a good ambassador for what you believe.

    Please continue to challenge my assertions and understandings. I have learned from you. From your perspective, Calvinism is not as bad as i originally thought it to be...

    May God Bless You.
     
    #50 ForumChaplain, Sep 17, 2002
  11. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    The real issue is whither a just God would do it in such an unjust manner. Whither you consider it my personal view or not is of no consequence to me. What i find of consequence is there is no evidence in scripture that attributes such a dastardly act to such a just and holy god.
     
    #51 ForumChaplain, Sep 17, 2002
  12. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    You sound like those people who hated Jesus: "...We will not have this man to reign over us." (Lk. 19:14)
     
    #52 Primitive Baptist, Sep 17, 2002
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Chappie,

    I do agree with you that such an arrangement and display of power would be dastardly and merciless. There would be no kindness or love shown to men and women prefabricated for destruction/Hell.
     
    #53 Ray Berrian, Sep 17, 2002
  14. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    You sound like those people who hated Jesus: "...We will not have this man to reign over us." (Lk. 19:14)</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps I just need to explain the intent of my words.

    Give me liberty, attribute to me freewill; or give me justice, or demonstrate that your efficacious grace can be scripturally attributed to a just God.

    If i reject God, and he condemns me to hell, the consequences are just.

    If we are all sinners, and God judges all sinners, his consequences are just.

    But when God efficaciously gives light to some, and darkness to the rest without either one being more or less deserving of salvation or condemnation; he certaintly has the soverign right to do so. But by the criteria that he gave to man that defines Justice, it is an unjust act. God does not act unjustly and then call it just. He would be acting outside of hios revealed nature.

    This, his revelations tell us that he does not do. So why do you attribute it to him in order to support your man made doctrine.

    Matt 12:31-32
    31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
    (KJV)

    The Holy Spirit does not act that way......

    [ September 18, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #54 ForumChaplain, Sep 17, 2002
  15. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Thank you.
    It is good to know that you are here....
     
    #55 ForumChaplain, Sep 17, 2002
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    What did God mean when He said, 'The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through Him might believe?'

    Did He mean that He only came to save men [not women and children]? or did He mean that He came only to save the elect? or did He mean, that He came to save every human being if they will but believe in Him?

    The correct answer is found in the last question in the second paragraph.

    This verse give the scope of God's concern for human beings and also the conduit by which He makes up His elect. [​IMG]
     
    #56 Ray Berrian, Sep 18, 2002
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Ray... Ephesians 5: 14 Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
    #57 tyndale1946, Sep 18, 2002
  18. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Question:
    Does your potent view of Calvinism come because you presume God is so enamored with his power that he does willingly just to demonstrate his sovereignty and power....

    Does a God that is not the quintessential dictator, a God that is not afraid to bestow a degree of autonomy upon his creation offend you.

    Does a God to whom all men are precious in his sight offend you.

    I am looking for just one expression of love and concern for those that are lost from a Calvinist. Tell me, if they are real people to you, can you empathize with them in their condition…..

    Talk to me about those that are lost…..
     
    #58 ForumChaplain, Sep 19, 2002
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    God enamored with himself? No God is jealous for himself. He will not share his glory with another, even with man. I was reading this morning in the book of Exodus concerning the flight from Egypt. It struck how God provoked Pharaoh into chasing the Israelites so that he could show his power by destroying them. It is right there in the text.

    Nope .. .doesn't offend me at all. The issue is not "what offends me about God?" The issue is more succintly what does Scripture say about how God deals with people.

    Not in the least. But unrelated to the issue it seems to me.

    I preach evangelistic message calling people to repent. I knock on doors looking for opportunities to share the gospel with people and call them to repent and believe. I walk the streets looking for people on porches and street corners to talk to.
     
    #59 Pastor Larry, Sep 19, 2002
  20. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Power, Power, Power, God is love, God has power; but God “Is” love..
    I Jn 4:7-8
    7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; "for God is love".
    If you want to find God revealed in your passages, find me some “love”. I can find it, can you Pastor Larry???

    God did not provoke Pharaoh to do anything, Pharaoh was raised up to be king over Egypt because of the evil that was in his heart. God did not make him evil, he hardened him or blinded him so to say so that he could not see truth; at least not before God demonstrated to Israel and to Egypt that he is God… And there is none other…

    God loves Egypt….
    Isa 19:24-25
    24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
    25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
    (KJV)

    Scriptures tell us that God deals mercifully, compassionately and justly with all people…

    The issue is, does God love all of his creation equally and enough to offer salvation to all, or is he only interested in establishing his kingdom and therefore only finds it necessary to love a few….

    But they cannot repent unless God repents them, if they come; God will reject most of them. Tell me how you pray for them. What do you ask of God on their behalf. And, does God ever answer your prayer for one that is lost… Will you ask God “why”, on their behalf. Will you ask God if he loves them. What risks will you take on their behalf: Will you beseech God on their behalf. Will you tell God that you love them and beg him to find a way to allow them into his kingdom. Is your prayer for them a feverent prayer, or just getting in some prayer time? Is your prayer only for those that are saved? If yes, what have you done that even a heathen does not do???
     
    #60 ForumChaplain, Sep 19, 2002
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