Given EQUALS draw - Jn. 6:44,65

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

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    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father
    .

    1. Draw is the cause for coming - v. 44 NO MAN CAN come but those the father "draw"

    2. Given is the cause for coming - vv. 65 NO MAN CAN come but those "given"

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


    1. ALL those given ALL come - v. 37
    2. "OF ALL" those given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - v. 39

    QUESTIONS:

    1. In this context can any "OF ALL" given fail to come to Christ according to verse 37? No!

    2. In this context can any "OF ALL" given be lost according to verse 39? No!

    3. In this context is "draw" and "give" used interchangably by Christ in verses 44 and 65? Yes!

    4. In this context is both "draw" and "give" the stated CAUSE for those coming to Christ in verses 44 and 65? Yes!

    5. Is there a difference between those who come to Christ by false profession and those who come to Christ because they were drawn/given by the Father according to verses 64-65? Yes. Those who were never drawn by the Father but come to Christ as disciples are "tares" or those described in 1 Jn. 2:19 - BECAUSE 100% OF ALL THE FATHER GIVES/DRAWS COME TO CHRIST AND "OF ALL" GIVEN/DRAWN NONE ARE LOST - V. 39

    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


    CONCLUSION: the "all" of John 6:37-39,44 is the same "all" of John 12:32 as they both refer to those who are drawn to Christ. To be drawn is to be given and "OF ALL" who are given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jun 7, 2013
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  2. BobRyan

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    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

    That applies to ALL - the unqualified ALL of the entire world --NO MAN can come to God without HIS drawing. That allows for no not even one Calvinist exception and downsize of "no man CAN'.

    Which means that the Drawing of ALL "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - is enabling the very thing that Calvinism says is disabled via the sinful nature.

    The choice to follow God.

    The eisegetical insert that Calvinism so desperately "needs" in the text is "ALL that God draws WILL come and be saved and the rest God simply ignores". How sad they do not have it.

    in Christ,

    Bob


     
    #2 BobRyan, Jun 7, 2013
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  3. The Biblicist

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    Amazing, simply Amazing! You trash all the contextual data that completley repudiates your assertions and then simply replace it by your assertions! This is why it is futile to discuss ANYTHING with you. You don't care what the Scriptures actually and literally state, you simply rewrite them to suite your own belly (desires).

    This is why you can't go point for point with what I laid out in such a clear logical and obvious manner. You dare not as to attempt that would expose your complete ignorance of these scriptures. Amazing truly amazing determined willful ignorance.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jun 7, 2013
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  4. The Biblicist

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    Let's take this in bite size portions.

    QUESTION: Does Christ replace "draw" in verse 44 with "given" in verse 65?

    Yes, or no!
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Let's advance to the second baby step:

    QUESTION: Do any of the "all" given by the Father to Christ in verse 37 fail to come to Christ or do "all" given come?

    Yes or No!

    If you answer "yes" some do faith then how you do you reconcile that response with ""all...shall come to me"?

    If you answer "no" then how do you reconcile that the vast majority of the "whole world" do not ever come to Christ but refuse to come to him as those listed in verse 36 and verses 41-43????
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Let us proceed to the third baby step:

    QUESTION: are there any "OF ALL" the father gives to Christ in verse 39 that Christ shall lose?

    Yes or No,

    If you say, "yes" then does "of all" include all or just some?

    If you say, "yes" then explain his immediate words "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"

    If you say, "yes" then you must explain how "of all" given equals your "whole world" interpretation of "all" here and how every human ever born did come to Christ because "all" those given here do come to Christ (v. 37).

    If you say "not" you repudiate your own interpretation and admit defeat.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    The first "baby step" is to "notice" the unqualified ALL in the writing of John. And to notice that EVEN by the limited and somewhat eisgetical Calvinist standards the "No man can come to me unless..." is a statement with a scope of ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

    All of this just so many details to be avoided if one is a cradle-calvinist - but for the rest of us - worthy Bible details to note.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    So you have no use for the immediate context of John 6. Instead you want to interpret John 6 by some other context. Well, that is your right but I don't have to crawl into your mire of perversion
     
  9. BobRyan

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    JOHN 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

    That applies to ALL - the unqualified ALL of the entire world --NO MAN can come to God without HIS drawing. That allows for no not even one Calvinist exception and downsize of "no man CAN'.

    (JOHN 6:44 is thus very clear even by Calvinist standards)

    Which means that the Drawing of ALL "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - is enabling the very thing that Calvinism says is disabled via the sinful nature.

    The choice to follow God.

    The eisegetical insert that Calvinism so desperately "needs" in the text is "ALL that God draws WILL come and be saved and the rest God simply ignores". How sad they do not have it.



    The first "baby step" is to "notice" the unqualified ALL in the writing of John. And to notice that EVEN by the limited and somewhat eisgetical Calvinist standards the JOHN 6:44 "No man can come to me unless..." is a statement with a scope of ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

    All of this just so many details to be avoided if one is a cradle-calvinist - but for the rest of us - worthy Bible details to note.

    When you make your appeal in that statement -- as if John 6:44 is an appeal to some other chapter that is not John 6 , well then I find your logic to be illusive.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    This is a negative not a positive. This is repeated in verse 65 and the word "given" is substituted in verse 65 for "draw" in verse 44 making them synonymous!

    Hence, NO MAN "can" come to Jesus except it is "given" them by the Father.

    However, you have skipped over the previoius context leading up to this verse which states ALL who are "given" by the Father DO COME (v. 37) - and hence, NONE but those given "CAN" come! That makes this drawing/given EFFECTUAL so that "ALL" given/drawn do actually come to Christ. Like it or lump it that is exactly what verses 37-39 spell out in connection with verses 44 and 65.

    The drawn EQUAL the Given - vv. 44, 65
    The drawn EQUAL "ALL" who actually do come to Christ - vv. 37-39
    NONE "of all" given/drawn ARE LOST - v. 39





    One itsy bitsy problem to your conclusion. ALL those given do actually do come (v. 37) = effectual call or divine enablement. NONE drawn fail to come "and I will raise HIM up at the last day" (v. 44b) - this is the very same ones in verse 39 whom the Lord says "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" "of all" those given.



    That is in the context - vv. 37-39 - NONE FAIL TO COME "OF ALL given and "draw" equals "given" as verse 65 proves.


    1. "draw" (v. 44) EQUALS "given" (v. 65)
    2. ALL "given/drawn" DO COME TO CHRIST - v. 37
    3. "OF ALL" given/drawn" NONE ARE LOST - v. 39

    So much for your logic.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    1. All drawn EQUALS All given - vv. 44,65
    2. All drawn/given EQUALS all coming to Christ - vv. 37,44b
    3. "of all" given/drawn EQUALS none lost - v. 39

    Also All drawn/given EQUALS all taught and learned of the Father - v. 45
    Also ALL taught of the Father EQUALS all that come to Christ - v. 45b

    This teaching/learning by the Father of all drawn/given is divine relvelation that is not conveyed through "flesh and blood":

    1. Mt. 16:17 "[I]flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you but my father in heaven[/I]"

    2. Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    1. Draw EQUALS given - vv. 44,65
    2. Draw/given EQUALS all that come - vv. 37,45b
    3. Draw/given EQUALS none lost - v. 39
    4. Draw/given EQUALS all that are taught/learn of Father - v. 45
    5. All taught/learn of Father EQUALS all that come - v. 45

    All taught/learn of the Father EQUALS all whom the Father REVEALS the Son in without being taught by "flesh and blood"

    1. "for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you but my Father" - Mt. 16:17

    2. "when it pleased God.....to reveal His son in me, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood." - Gal 1:15,16
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

    That applies to ALL - the unqualified ALL of the entire world --NO MAN can come to God without HIS drawing. That allows for no not even one Calvinist exception and downsize of "no man CAN'.

    Which means that the Drawing of ALL "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - is enabling the very thing that Calvinism says is disabled via the sinful nature.

    The choice to follow God.


    JOHN 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

    (JOHN 6:44 is thus very clear even by Calvinist standards)

    Which means that the Drawing of ALL "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - is enabling the very thing that Calvinism says is disabled via the sinful nature.


    The first "baby step" is to "notice" the unqualified ALL in the writing of John. And to notice that EVEN by the limited and somewhat eisgetical Calvinist standards the JOHN 6:44 "No man can come to me unless..." is a statement with a scope of ALL MANKIND without a single exception.

    All of this just so many details to be avoided if one is a cradle-calvinist - but for the rest of us - worthy Bible details to note.

    When you make your appeal in that statement -- as if John 6:44 is an appeal to some other chapter that is not John 6 , well then I find your logic to be illusive.

    =====================


    A point that does not negate the context showing an unqualified "ALL" scope of ALL mankind EVEN by Calvinist standards.


    A world wide - ALL mankind scope AND context set already in John 6 and seen explicitly in John 6:44.

    you have bait-and-switched from the John 6:44 context of ALL mankind having to be drawn by God or they will not come to him - and that there is No exception to this rule - and have skipped ahead to the more narrow scope of "those GIVEN".

    But EVEN by Calvinist standards the ALL MANKIND scope that states that NO ONE can come to Christ unless DRAWN - is the LARGER group and the "those given" is the smaller one.

    The ALL MANKIND scope of John 6:44 is perfectly fit for the "I WILL DRAW ALL" in the unqualified "ALL" manner in which it is stated in John 123:32 AFTER this John 6:44 scope of mankind needing to be DRAWN.

    And the DRAWING is to "ALL" and not to "all of an arbitrarily diminished and selected sort-of persons or sort-of nations" as convoluted as such Calvinist downsizing of scripture - would have it.




    One gigantic flaw in your conclusion - ALL those DRAWN are never said to come to Christ. it is the much-imagined hope of Calvinism that such a statement will be found one day in scripture - and to date it has not been found.

    Calvinist eisegesis involves a bait-and-switch where

    1. "draw" (v. 44) is swapped out for "given" (v. 65)
    2. ALL "given" DO COME TO CHRIST - v. 37 - so now imagine that all DRAWN also come to Christ
    3. "OF ALL" given" NONE ARE LOST - v. 39 - so now imagine that all DRAWN are also not lost.

    So much for your logic.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Calvinist eisegesis involves a bait-and-switch where

    1. "draw" (v. 44) is swapped out for "given" (v. 65)
    2. ALL "given" DO COME TO CHRIST - v. 37 - so now imagine that all DRAWN also come to Christ
    3. "OF ALL" given" NONE ARE LOST - v. 39 - so now imagine that all DRAWN are also not lost.

    Further that eisegesis imainges that

    1. Draw can be swapped out for "given" - vv. 44,65

    Even though no text says such a thing and EVEN by Calvinist standards the "No man CAN" come to Me text is ALL MANKIND - WITHOUT exception in scope.

    And of course vs 65 does NOT say "all who are drawn will come to me" - it is simply a calvinist eisgetical insert that asks the reader to "imagine" what is not seen IN the text.

    How can they expect us to take that seriously? really?

    Here is a lists of statements that will NOT be found in John 6.


    2. those Drawn are limited to only those that come - vv. 37,45b
    3. those drawn are limited to only those not lost - v. 39
    4. those drawn are limited to ONLY those that are taught/learn of Father - v. 45

    These not-so-subtle salient points of Calvinism are missing from the "Actual" text of scripture - so the Calvinist solution is to "insert the missing details" via argument.

    Not so subtle indeed.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    The "gay" pastor is more honest with scripture than you are.

    Anyone reading the references can clearly see they say exactly opposite to what you deny they say - just read.

    1. Draw is equal to given and anyone reading John 6:44 with John 6:65 can easily see that if they can read English:

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    65....Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    2. The "him" that is drawn/given is the same "him" that comes to Christ, EVER MAN that learns of the Father does come to Christ just as the text explicity and clearly says:

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    3. Those Drawn are the same as those "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" as the very same promise that ends verse 39 ends verse 44:

    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    4. All those drawn, every single one do come to Christ and "every man" that does learn does come to Christ:


    It is a sad case when you have to reject what the Word of God explicitly and clearly states in plain English!!!!
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Calvinist eisegesis involves a bait-and-switch where

    Here is a lists of statements that will NOT be found in John 6.


    2. those Drawn are limited to only those that come - vv. 37,45b
    3. those drawn are limited to only those not lost - v. 39
    4. those drawn are limited to ONLY those that are taught/learn of Father - v. 45

    These not-so-subtle salient points of Calvinism are missing from the "Actual" text of scripture - so the Calvinist solution is to "insert the missing details" via argument.

    The title of this thread may as well be "Calvinists want you to imagine that when you read the word GIVEN- you should SAY - DRAWN".



    Again these are two good examples of texts that DO NOT say

    "All those DRAWN will come to me".

    Nor "ALL that are drawn ARE also given to ME".

    all squares are indeed rectangles - but the Calvinist would have us stand that on its head to say "all rectangles are therefore squares".

    And as nice a word-game-trick as that is to play on the surface readers - it will not hold water with the objective unbiased bible students - and I think we both know it.

    1. "No Man can come to me UNLESS" -- is an explicit context that brings into view ALL the world - no exception.

    2. And while we can all see that anyone who comes to Christ was given Him by the Father and was indeed drawn.

    3. Yet the Calvinist point that ALL drawn will come to Christ - is not in the text at all.

    Only SOME rectangles are squares - even though ALL squares are rectangles.

    MANY called - FEW chosen.

    "I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 - the unqualified ALL.

    For "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance". 2Pet 3

    The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the Calvinist's arbitrarily selected "Few" of Matt 7.

    For God "So loved the WORLD -- yes really!" John 3

    God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD 1 John 4- yes really.

    God gave His Son as "The atoning sacrifice for OUR sing and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD". 1John 2:2


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    In order to have a meaningful discussion or debate it requires both parties to be honest. You are simply not being honest. I have provided specific evidence and your response is simply to ignore it and then repeat the same disproven nonsense all over again. You don't deal directly with the specificevidence I presented because you can't. So there is no point in discussing the subject with you until you can be honest enough to at least address the specific evidence presented directly to you. Pleeeeeease don't respond that you have because that is simply a lie.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Jun 10, 2013
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  18. BobRyan

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    all squares are indeed rectangles - but the Calvinist would have us stand that on its head to say "all rectangles are therefore squares".

    And as nice a word-game-trick as that is to play on the surface readers - it will not hold water with the objective unbiased bible students - and I think we both know it.

    1. "No Man can come to me UNLESS" -- is an explicit context that brings into view ALL the world - no exception.

    2. And while we can all see that anyone who comes to Christ was given Him by the Father and was indeed drawn.

    3. Yet the Calvinist point that ALL drawn will come to Christ - is not in the text at all.

    Only SOME rectangles are squares - even though ALL squares are rectangles.

    MANY called - FEW chosen.

    "I will DRAW ALL" John 12:32 - the unqualified ALL.

    For "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance". 2Pet 3

    The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the Calvinist's arbitrarily selected "Few" of Matt 7.

    For God "So loved the WORLD -- yes really!" John 3

    God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD 1 John 4- yes really.

    God gave His Son as "The atoning sacrifice for OUR sing and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD". 1John 2:2

     
  19. The Biblicist

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    This text says no such thing! Note the pronoun "him" in the second half of the verse has for its antecedent "him" and the former part of the verse - SAME PERSON - The "him" that is drawn is the same "him" that is raised up in the resurrection of life. It is the resurrection of life because Christ has used it twice before this verse in verses 39-40 and both verses refer to NONE LOST.

    Hence, that man that is drawn is the same man that is raised up.


    In verse 45 Jesus is quoting Isaiah where the "ALL" are identified as God's "children." The "all" in verse 45 is the "EVERY MAN" in verse 45 - same Greek word translated for both "all" and "every man" - same ones. EVERY MAN that has learned, NOT SOME but "EVERY MAN" that has learned and been taught by the Father "cometh to me" NOT SOME but "EVERY MAN".

    I have given you contextual specifics, but if I were a betting man, you will run from the specifics as fast as your little feet can carry you or ignore them, pervert them but do anything but deal honestly with them.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    that is precisely what you are trying to do with scripture. You are attempting to force a square into a round hole and it is absurdly funny.


    You don't care a thing about the immediate context do you???? "no man can come to except" is a universal denial with one exception - don't you get that? It is not a universal positive but a universal negative that is given but one exception. That exception is that the "HIM" must be drawn to come to Christ and that "HIM" which is drawn will be raised up in the resurrection of life. HOw do we know it is the resurrection of life? Because Jesus has already used this same exact phrase twice before this text and only in contexts where NONE ARE LOST (v. 39) and ALL have ETERNAL LIFE (v. 40).

    But you don't care about the context do you. You only care about forcing you point into the text regardless of what you have to do to make it fit.




    You can't see that "OF ALL" given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - v. 39. He did not say "SOME" which are given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" but "OF ALL" given by the Father to him "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" - Christ says "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" but Bob says "I SHALL LOSE SOME" of those given to me by the Father! Who is telling the truth? Christ or Bob?

    It most certainly is THREE TIMES. The "him" that is drawn is the "Him" he raises to eternal life in verse. 44.

    The "ALL" of verse 45 that he teaches, "EVERY MAN" (same Greek term translated "all") shall "cometh to me" - Again "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING"
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Jun 11, 2013
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