God and natural selection

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by UnchartedSpirit, Jan 20, 2006.

  1. UnchartedSpirit

    UnchartedSpirit
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    Exactly how much of this does God allow, and still be able for it to declare his splendor?
    BTW Does anyone know about early canine history? I'm just hearing about an extince species called borophage, and they look more like the domesticated dogs we have...could it be that they just all became regular dogs for humans?
     
  2. shannonL

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    I believe Gen. 1 -11 is a literal interp. God made the world in 6 literal days. Then on the 7th. He rested.
     
  3. UnchartedSpirit

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    I meant after the curse and Noahs flood (when God intorduced rain on the earth) there believers claim for microevolution to happen that can still glorify Him, but what is in the limit of microevoluition to full Darwin elovultion?
     
  4. Helen

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    MICRO evolution is simply variation. Because most physical traits are determined by combinations of genes as well as their timing and extent of expression, there is quite a bit of variation possible within any given population of plants, animals, or people. We can go from Zulu to pygmy, from pale Norwegian to black Ethiopian, all over the scale and we are all still human.

    In the same way dogs have been selected artificially, by breeding OUT traits to leave what is desired. This is a version of what happens in nature. Traits which are undesireable are selected against, wiping them out of a population. After awhile so many traits have been selected against that you have an endangered species, able to live in only a very narrow environment. In the meantime, however, it may have become quite distinct looking, as all the other variations were bred out and selected out.

    Darwinian evolution does not stop there. It claims that since we see such variation is possible, that great changes in body type and body function also happened, so that gradually one sort of thing, like a bacteria, changed into another, like a fish and then to an amphibian and from there to bears and bats and birds and such. This kind of MACRO evolution has zero evidence going for it and only men's interpretations and desires for it to have happened.

    We can see a great deal of variation is possible within each basic kind. From the canine kind we got wolves and coyotes and domestic dogs and such. From the equine kind we got horses and mules and donkeys and zebras. From the camel kind we got llamas, dromedaries, alpacas, camels, and such.

    The fact that God was able to design into the early populations the ability to vary to such an extent does indeed declare His splendor to a biologist! But remember, all creation is currently subject to decay due to man's sin -- as we were to have dominion over creation and we blew it. So we have even seen that degeneration in the genetic material of man and beast. This is an accumulation of negative mutations which is called a 'genetic load.' This gives rise to much of what we see in the human race of genetic diseases and disabilities. It was not always this way...

    I hope that helps a bit.
     
  5. StraightAndNarrow

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    Scientists can say nothing about how matter and energy were created from nothing and what existed before that. God is the only answer. From that point on God is glorified because He created everything. Whether it be through a literal unfolding of the Genesis accounts (which aren't the same) or some other process, God is the creator.

    Plants and Animals Created First

    Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

    Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Man Created First

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
     
  6. Artimaeus

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    Psa 19:1 &lt;To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.&gt; The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
    Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
    Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

    Psa 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

    Psa 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

    God's glory, splender, magnificence, and magesty are independent of man's recognition of it.

    [ January 21, 2006, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Artimaeus ]
     
  7. Humblesmith

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    As Philip Johnson pointed out in his book "Darwin On Trial," modern biologists don't even agree on what natural selection means, let alone agree on how it's supposed to work.

    That said, I think your use of the word "allow" is appropriate. God may allow some things, but he does not work through natural selection. For "in him all things hold together" (Col. 1:17) and "in him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28) God upholds and guides all things, and does not need unguided, purposeless processes to make things happen.

    But he could allow variation in species, such as our freedom to marry different looking people.
     
  8. Helen

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    Humblesmith, natural selection was first written about by a creationist, actually, and it is a very real thing. You can demonstrate it for yourself simply by mowing your lawn. The height at which you mow it determines which grasses do the best. Now there are no lawn mowers in nature, but consider a much-used pathway through the forest. Those plants that cannot handle the traffic die off there and live elsewhere, while the niche they leave is then taken over by hardier forms.

    That is natural selection.

    In an animal population, you have some variations in each population. Taller, heavier, faster, smarter, more aggressive, etc. Aggressiveness among males in competition for breeding rights is a form of natural selection. The weaker members don't get the chance to pass on their genes.

    A severe drought will leave a good part of the population dead. A few will survive, for whatever reason. That is natural selection.

    The end result of the above example with the drought is that a good part of the gene pool is lost to the population, which has now dwindled to just a few. And only their genes will get passed on.

    That is why the final result of natural selection is a deletion effect on the gene pool of any given population. It does not and cannot do what evolution demands it must do -- add to the complexity and/or variations available in a population, thus producing new species and then new genuses, families, orders, classes, phylums, etc.

    It's real, all right. But it deletes and eventually destroys a population.
     
  9. UnchartedSpirit

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    So it merely proves that nature is under a curse, and groans for the coming of the lord right?
     
  10. Helen

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    In my opinion, it is certainly evidence of that. I'd be careful about using the word 'proof', however.
     
  11. UnchartedSpirit

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    but won't that otherwise leave us saying 'well only know after we've died?'
     
  12. Humblesmith

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    Again, see Johnson. He documents the definitions given by biologists.....names and sources of how they can't agree amongst themselves. But when Newsweek or Time calls, then they'll lock arms and give some popular pap about everyone agreeing on it.
     
  13. Helen

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    That has a lot to do with faith... :D

    We don't have what it takes to know everything BEFORE we die!

    In the meantime, there is plenty to discover and plenty to work with. But I think you will find that the more you discover and the more you work with things, you will find the more there IS to discover and work with!

    And yes, Humblesmith's recommendation of Phil Johnson's books is an excellent one.
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

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    All such questions assume that there is some validity to the evolutionist heresy when, in reality, there is not. Obviously, there is a wide variation of characteristics within the different species. All that means is that is the way God created it.

    Has nothing to do with the curse. Has nothing to do with natural selection. Has nothing to do with evolution. God just made things so there would be a variety and beauty within His creation.

    All we need to do is accept what God did and glory in His creative ability and majesty in Jesus Christ the Lord,

    "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him and for him."

    All hail the power of Jesus name!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. Shiloh

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    Mark Osgatharp you hit the nail on the head!

    Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good:

    Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

    Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
     
  16. Paul of Eugene

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    Evolution as a fact has been established in science now for a long time. The theory of darwinian selection provides many insights into the understanding of the fact of evolution.

    Saying that macro evolution is impossible but micro evolution is possible is kind of like saying that adding one cent to a bank account every day will never get you a million dollars, no not even in a million years.

    God's word remains true, but we sometimes learn we have not been interpreting it correctly in the past. This has happened before in the history of science, when all the clerics of the day argued against those upstart notions of men like Copernicus and Gallileo. How dare they suggest that the earth rotates as the cause of day and night? That was clearly contrary to scripture!

    Today we know it was not clearly contrary to scriputre, but it was the discovery of the truth about the rotation of the earth that helped lead us to the broader, less literal understanding of the Bible.

    It is the same with evolution. We are still in the process, however, of coming to realize the full impact of the evidence for evolution, and so we remain in a transition state.
     
  17. Helen

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    Mark, Shiloh, we know variation happens. We know natural selection happens. Look at dogs and you will see varieties, but they are all dogs. The same with cats, horses, pigs, ducks...variation is a natural thing which God put into the genetics of the original populations.

    But the evolution Paul of Eugene is talking about is a myth. It is absolutely contrary to not only Scripture but nature as well.

    Variation is one thing. A bacteria becoming a bear in 3 billion years is quite another and totally false.
     
  18. AntennaFarmer

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    UH-OH......Here we go again.............
     
  19. AntennaFarmer

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    I like your lawn mower analogy sister Helen.
     
  20. RayMarshall19

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