God has provided salvation for all mankind.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Pioneer, Nov 27, 2001.

  1. Pioneer

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    God has provided salvation for all mankind.

    Romans 11:30-32, "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

    Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

    John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
     
  2. John Wells

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    Pioneer,

    You have been shown dozens of verses that refute your claim. Does the Baptist church that you belong to believe/teach universal salvation, or is it just you?

    "All" in the context of the verses you quote means "all nations" or "all tribes," i.e. heaven will be populated with members of all nations and tribes. It doesn't mean everyone will be saved.
     
  3. Pioneer

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    I never said that I believe all men will be saved. I said that God provided salvation for all men and I gave scriptural proofs for my statement. The provision is available to all who will repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. The difference between you and I is that I believe the scriptures when it says that all men have the opportunity to be saved.

    The problem is that whenever someone accepts false doctrine he begins to explain away scripture in order to rationalize the false doctrine. In order to rationalize Calvinism you explain away the following scriptures by saying that God didn't really mean "all men" when he said "all men". It's no wonder you accept heresies and false doctrine. It all starts out with "yea hath God said"

    Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

    John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

    [ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
     
  4. Brian

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    Amen! All means all. In all 4664 times it appears in the KJV (according to Strongs Exhaustive Concordance). We ahve the choice not to save ourselves by works, or have more power than God because of choice we have choice because He gave it to us. Can't explain why but I don't try to explain it away.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    One brand of really bad theology has been discussed before - universalism. God clearly states in His Word that broad is the way that leads to hell and most will go there. Sorry.

    And think this one through: Jesus said "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

    Was He lifted up on the cross? Yes.

    Then what must happen? He WILL draw all men to himself and all will be saved.

    That is an erroneous interpretation, since we know that all will NOT be saved. So what do we do?

    Context and understanding of words will really help one's theological dilemmas.

    There is a group that the Father gave the Son (called the elect, chosen, selected ones) and ALL of them will respond because of the special work of the HS in regenerating their hearts.

    THAT is the "all" spoken of in many places in Scripture.

    Hope this helps clarify the matter.
     
  6. Pioneer

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    Think this one through: Jesus said "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

    Was He lifted up on the cross? Yes.

    Then what must happen? He WILL draw all men to himself and all will be saved.

    That is an erroneous interpretation, since we know that all will NOT be saved.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You have just committed to errors:

    #1 - You misrepresent what I said by building a straw man and then bringing the literal interpretation of scripture to a false conclusion.

    I never said all men will be saved. I said that God made it possible for all men to be saved. Big difference.

    #2 - You interpret scripture in the light of your doctrinal beliefs rather than letting scripture interpret itself.

    Yes, Christ does draw all men unto himself. Do all men come to salvation? No. Why? Because of the hardness of their hearts and human resistance to the divine calling.

    Many are called but few are chosen. Why? Because few answer the call, that's why. God has chosen to save all who will come to Christ in repentance and faith and all men do have the opportunity to be saved but all men will not be saved.

    Hebrews 4:2, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

    [ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
     
  7. John Wells

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    Brian: Amen! All means all. In all 4664 times it appears in the KJV

    Please look at the following:

    Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. (Mat 2:3 KJV)

    Now Brian, do you really think every man, woman, and child in Jerusalem even knew about the birth of Jesus, much less were troubled? If you actually went through the 4664 “alls” one by one, you would find that quite often, “all” is used very loosely in the scriptures.

    Pioneer,

    Your objections to Dr. Bob's very good discourse is mere semantics.
     
  8. swaimj

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    Hang in there, Pioneer! Lots of arguments are advanced against you and scriptures are cited to attempt to contradict you, but the simple statement of Romans 11:30-32 has not been "interpreted" by our calvinist friends!
     
  9. Brian

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    No in simple context though everyone was troubled by Herod. King felt bad, killed all the little boy childeren,everyone is troubled. And wouldn't they be? Wouldn't the U.S. have toubles if Bush under matrial law started killing our childeren? In simple context the word all still means all.
     
  10. Brian

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    I did use Strongs to look up the meanings af each occurance of the word all. Not each scripture but the original language word translated as all. I seem to remember 43 or 45 different words translated as all. In each word there was nothing contradictory to common definition/application of the word. It, regardless of how you want to twist it, still means all.
     
  11. changed_like_saul

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    Dear Pioneer,

    The following is what Christ said in John 6 verses......
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Dear Brother in Christ, our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus plainly says &lt;*U&gt;those which God gave Him will come to Him&lt;*/U&gt; and in verse 44 in the same chapter Christ said...
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    The conclusion is this.....everyone that comes to Christ, Christ died for them and they will be with Him in eternal glory and the only way to Christ is IF God draws a man/woman to Christ. If God does not draw they can not come to Christ and if they do not come to Christ, eternal salvation is impossible.

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
     
  12. Brian

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    Changed, no where on this thread has Pioneer discussed the Holy Spirit or any mode of conviction. Or any whys or hows of accepting Christ. His statement is very simple and not covered by the scripture you quote. Pioneer and I state the Christs' sacrifice was for everyone. And that the Grace imparted thereby, according to scripture, is a gift that the individual either accepts or rejects. The sacrifice is for whosoever will. God gives us to Jesus when we accept that gift. God draws us to the gift though the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
     
  13. S. Baptist

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
    Changed, no where on this thread has Pioneer discussed the Holy Spirit or any mode of conviction. Or any whys or hows of accepting Christ. His statement is very simple and not covered by the scripture you quote. Pioneer and I state the Christs' sacrifice was for everyone. And that the Grace imparted thereby, according to scripture, is a gift that the individual either accepts or rejects. The sacrifice is for whosoever will. God gives us to Jesus when we accept that gift. God draws us to the gift though the conviction of the Holy Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    In Six days God made the Hevens and the Earth, and on the Seventh day he rested.

    That all the days you can find in God "original plan".

    Question: If God predestined man to sin, "WHY" isn't that "day of sin", the "Eighth day", in God's original plan???
     
  14. Brian

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:



    In Six days God made the Hevens and the Earth, and on the Seventh day he rested.

    That all the days you can find in God "original plan".

    Question: If God predestined man to sin, "WHY" isn't that "day of sin", the "Eighth day", in God's original plan???
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    what??
     
  15. Brian

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    I see I had to think on that thing a second. If it were all predestined then there would have been a provision for it from the get go.
     
  16. John Wells

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    Brian: No in simple context though everyone was troubled by Herod. King felt bad, killed all the little boy childeren,everyone is troubled. And wouldn't they be? Wouldn't the U.S. have toubles if Bush under matrial law started killing our childeren? In simple context the word all still means all.

    Getting a little ahead of the event sequence there aren't you? Not everyone in Jerusalem had small children . . . breakdown! :eek:

    BTW, I have been debating you Christlike. You would do well to do the same. You accuse me of "twisting" scripture because I don't agree with you. Shame on you!

    Since you insist on being argumentative concerning “all,” decipher these:

    And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. (Mat 4:24 KJV)

    Do you claim Jesus healed 100% of those needing healing in Syria?

    And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Mat 10:22 KJV)

    Does everyone who isn’t a Christian hate Christians? Some have no opinion or could care less.

    But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. (Mat 21:26 KJV)

    Are we really to believe the intent of this is that every Israelite believed John was a prophet? How about the Sadducees and Pharisees who confronted, rebuked, and imprisoned him.

    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Mat 26:52 KJV)

    Many career military personnel have not died by the sword. You're debating with one!

    Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. (Acts 3:25 KJV)

    How can everyone (all) on earth be blessed if all are not saved? This is the same meaning in the verses you quoted earlier. All nations and tribes will be represented in heaven, but not every single person.

    So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done. (Acts 4:21 KJV)

    If everyone was glorifying God, why were there “others” who were seeking to do him harm? I’ll stop here unless you still insist “all” always means “all.” Let’s get back to reasonable debate.

    [ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  17. Brian

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    All still means all or it would be a different word. And you put forth the idea that scripture was written as events occured and not after. If you apply this logic to genisis then God created man male and female in Gen 1:27 then again in Gen 2:7 then later in
    Gen 2:22 he made the female Eve again. So that would be 4 first humans in Gods image right?
     
  18. JAMES2

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    Pioneer:
    So God made it "possible" for ALL men to be saved? His atonement was equally for all and all the unregenerated man has to do is "accept" the offer. I truly do not understand how that position can be sustained. Without a doubt, it makes the effectiveness of the atonement dependent on man instead of Christ. What if no one "accepted" the atonement. That would mean that Christ died in vain.

    To say that Christ's sacrificial death, which is the highest expression of divine love to man, applies equally to all men and then observe that a multitude of mankind has and is entering a Christless eternity certainly does not magnify God's love or His wisdom. Will God love those who are in hell equally with the redeemed who are with Christ in eternity? I doubt it.

    All MAN HAS TO DO -- That is works, no matter how you want to define it. Man this, man that, poor God wants to save all but MAN HAS TO. I don't understand how you can hold a position that glorifies man, and reduces the Sovereign God of the Universe to a begger -- a ineffective, incompetent savior. GOD WANTS TO but MAN HAS TO before GOD CAN. All I can say is the whole concept is very man-centered instead of Christ-centered.

    And I do not mean that in a personal way, because I used to believe the same way. I understand that born again, believers can disagree, because we do. I just wish everyone would pick the right side of the issue (My side of course). Just kidding.

    I think the place to start is with the knowledge that God can do ANYTHING. If he desires, it is. If God wanted to save the WHOLE world why did Jesus say in John 17:9 ....I do not ask on behalf of the World, but of THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN ME...
    Which of course, means, there are those whom you have not given me, otherwise the verse would be nonsensical babble.

    I believe that the atonment saved every single person that it was INTENDED to save. Not one single person was lost. Jesus saved ALL that he died for. No guess work, no maybe, no I hope I did a good job and people will like me, and accept me. No sir!!! All, without exception, that the Father gave to Jesus, were saved. Period!!! John 10:1-30.

    God bless, and have a great day

    James2

    [ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  19. John Wells

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    Brian: All still means all or it would be a different word.

    But all is an ambiguous word used ambiguously in the Bible, i.e. "all who will." Surely we all agree on that! :D

    Sorry, but I see no connection or correlation with your Genesis comment. Also noticed you did not respond specifically to the scriptures I quoted, because to use your line of reasoning with them would be . . . unreasonable!

    James2,

    AMEN!

    [ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

    [ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  20. Brian

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    James if you will tell me how you know you're one of them? Also if we couldn't choose then why have Jesus suffer in the first place? If God presdestined x number of people no matter what they did then why not just wait until all those who are predestined to be born and skip to revelation? Or better yet since it's just the few elect why not just create them and be done?
     

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