God knows us before We are Born Therefore He Predestines By that Forknowledge

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Jan 19, 2016.

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  1. revmwc

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    Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Because God pre-knew Jeremiah and the choices Jeremiah would make before he was in the womb, God Predestined him to be conformed to being a prophet and for us we see:

    Romans 8:
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Genesis 25 also shows us this,
    23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
    24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.

    He knew them before they were born, and we see Romans 9:
    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth:
    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    God knows us before we are ever born and therefore we are called and predestinated before birth. God does this while giving us volition to make choices for Him or to reject Him, the thing is because of His omniscience He already knows the choices we will make.
     
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  2. Internet Theologian

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    That's not biblical brother and it is not what foreknowledge teaches. You're conflating your definition and presupposition with the Biblical doctrine.

    God chooses for His purpose and glory not due to any future choices those whom He chooses will make.

    Note the argument of verse 14; What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

    This verse is based upon God choosing prior to whether either had made any choices and is not based on that at all. The language of verse 14 would be totally unnecessary based upon your interpretation of the text.

    Here is more context in verses 15ff:

    "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "

    Note also James 1:18. Keep in mind also that in a lost state none can please God, Romans 8:8 and Paul already made this argument prior to Romans 9, so there is context. The fallacy you are making is that persons can please God in their lost state, in the flesh, and therefore God chooses to save these due to those good things they've done. That is a most unscriptural error brother.
     
    #2 Internet Theologian, Jan 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
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  3. revmwc

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    So Jeremiah was wrong? God did not know him before he was in the womb are you saying that's not biblical?
     
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  4. Internet Theologian

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    Brother I believe you are being a bit disingenuous here. Did I say I didn't believe the biblical account, or was it your treatment of the passage? Take a close look at what Scriptures I offered and the context. Your teaching is amiss and therefore it is a given it cannot be biblically accurate.
     
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  5. revmwc

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    Let's take a look at the commentary from John Calvin on this verse, "
    Jeremiah then was not actually sanctified in the womb, but set apart according to God’s predestination and hidden purpose; that is, God chose him then to be a Prophet. It may be asked, whether he was not chosen before the creation of the world? To this it may be readily answered, that he was indeed foreknown by God before the world was made; but Scripture accommodates itself to the measure of our capacities, when it speaks of the generation of any one: it is then the same as though God had said of Jeremiah, that he was formed man for this end that in due time he might come forth a Prophet."
    What did God foreknow about Jeremiah that would cause God to make him "ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." He knew what his heart would be and what his choice for God was.
     
  6. Crabtownboy

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    To foreknow is not to predestine. An analogy: I am in a helicopter and looking down I see a car passing another as they approach the crest of a hill. I see another car coming toward the two cars. I can see and know there is going to be a head-on crash. I foreknow this but I do not predestine this. The two are not the same.
     
  7. revmwc

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    Let's look at John Gill on this "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; in which sense the Lord knows them that are his, as he does not others, and predestinates them unto eternal life; and which is not only before their formation in the womb, but before the foundation of the world, even from all eternity. The forming of the human foetus is God's act, and a curious piece of workmanship it is; see Psalm 139:15."

    Yet another well known theologian of old that states that God knows us through His Omniscience before our conception and because he knows EVERYTHING about us he knows the choices we will make.

    Matthew Henry states on this "Known unto God are all his own works beforehand, and his knowledge is infallible and his purpose unchangeable."

    A more modern writer Ironside states "Nothing ever takes GOD by surprise. Consequently, with Him, there can be no after-thought.

    All was foreseen long, long before its actual occurrence; everything was provided for. Satan, sin, and their attendant evils, have in no wise interfered with His purpose, "who worketh all things according to the counsel of His own will." (Ephesians 1:11)"

    Commentary upon commentary states God in His Omniscience, knew that is foreknew ALL, EVERYTHING about us, that would be ALL inclusive of the choices we would make before the foundation of the world.
     
  8. BrotherJoseph

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    Exactly. In the Greek predestined actually means "predetermined", however man, not God, would be the "determiner" if God's predestination was based merely on His foreknowledge of the future actions and choices of men. We serve a much stronger God than that.
     
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  9. revmwc

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    You don't know there will be you think in your limited knowledge that their will be a head on collision but you don't know how the drivers will react but God in His Omniscience knows exactly what will happen. Now let me ask this of your example, how many will be killed in the head on? You don't know but guess what God knows out of His omniscience, did he predestinate it no, did he foreknow it yes. But Romans
    8 states: "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

    You see to limit God is to limit His Omniscience and therefore limiting God's power and authority.
     
  10. Internet Theologian

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    Sounds good, but then:

    That's not correct brother.

    Everything he said I agree with, but you're presuming upon what he said and adding to it. That is what I disagree with, your doctrine is amiss on what foreknowledge is biblically. It isn't that God saw what good a person would do then choose that person. That is a twisted works type gospel making salvation and calling a reward for positive behavior not the free gift that it is.

    Brother you skip right past the passages given to you, their argument against your theory, remain oblivious to it, and then you repeat your error.
     
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  11. Internet Theologian

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    Of course God knows each and everything about us. I believe we all accept that, but you're saying God chooses us based upon some good thing or choice we make. That's what is false.
     
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  12. revmwc

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    Didn't say what a good person would do no one is good enough to get to heaven. I said God in His omniscience a with knew ahead of time the choice for or against Cheist a person would make
     
  13. revmwc

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    No I am saying that He predestinated us based on knowing us beforehand that is He knew who would call upon the name of the Lord the choice we would make in Faith
     
  14. Internet Theologian

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    That's not His basis of election. It appears you are saying that it is.

    As I stated your message is making salvation a reward, merited for behavior and choice. It is a free gift given to the elect based on nothing they've done, nor based upon choice. Yet again you bypass all the Scriptures I gave you. Brother you are offering nothing but a couple verses then adding into them what you believe instead of getting your belief from the Scriptures themselves.
     
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  15. Internet Theologian

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    That's not even remotely accurate nor Scriptural.
     
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  16. revmwc

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    Jeremiah 1:5 the word knew from the Hebrew (Strongs) yada' meaning to know, to have knowledge of, to perceive and see. God had knowledge of Jeremiah before he was in the womb. So what did he know about Jeremiah?

    Romans 8:29 Foreknow=proginosko=To have knowledge beforehand, to know beforehand. Those whom God had knowledge of beforehand, what did he know about them and do for them?

    He predestinated=prooizo=to predetermine, decide beforehand, of God Decreeing from eternity, to foreordain, appoint before hand.
    Why did He Predestinate them because He knew them Beforehand? What did HE know about them beforehand?
    I believe He knew everything including the choices they would make. For He is an Omniscient God HE KNOWS everything. He knew man would fall before He created man how do we know this?
    1 Peter 1:
    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

    Christ was foreordained=proginosko=to have knowledge beforehand, to foreknow, notice it is the same Greek word as having foreknowledge of us. So if as most of you have been saying God didn't fully know everything beforehand even down to the choices we would make then why would He be His Foreknowledge have Foreordained Christ to be the savior. He would have known in eternity past that Adam and Eve would fall in the garden. So after the fall He would have needed to form the plan because He would not have known. Yet the plan for mankind's salvation was made before=pro=before the foundation=katabole=laying down the world.
    God's through foreknowledge, His all knowing nature, formed the plan for man's salvation before laying down the world. God knew man would fall, God knew Jeremiah would choose to serve Him, God knew Jacob and Esau before the foundation of the world and knew them in the womb enough to say that the elder would serve the younger. Throughout scripture we see God know's all even the choices we will make in life, nothing surprises Him. He made the plan of salvation for mankind before laying down the foundation of the world why because HE foreknew man the choice Adam and Eve would make to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But by most of your definitions of foreknowledge He didn't know Adam and Eve would fall therefore would not have formed a plan for mankinds salvation but Peter made it clear, Christ was Foreordained, proginosko, foreknown, to be the savior who would die on the cross, who would be buried and raised from the grave. So that whosoever believeth on Him would not perish but have everlasting life. God foreknew who the whosoever were, He knows who the whosoevers are today and He has known this before the foundation of the world.
     
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  17. SovereignGrace

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    What about those who eternally perish in their sins? Did He predestine them, seeing He knew they'd die lost?
     
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  18. revmwc

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    He foreknew their choices. We see John 17:12 Jesus lost none of His disciples except the son of perdition. Now what does it say about the son of perdition being lost that the scripture might be fulfilled. What scripture was fulfilled. Psalms 41: 9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
    Was this predestined to happen, yes, di God know beforehand it would be Judas, yes again! Genesis 25:23, did God know Esau's heart and the choices he would make before he was born, this verse says yes. Romans 9:13 says God hated Esau now He didn't hate Esau but his deeds and He knew what choice Esau would make. John 3:17-18 states those who believe not are condemned already why because of unbelief, God knows their unbelief.

    For the unbeliever we see Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    While hell was prepared for the devil and his angels all those who reject Christ will be sent there. Did he predetermine it for them, well he knew the choice they would make to reject Him, Christ knew Judas would betray Him and Psalms is clear what would be the fate of the betrayer.
     
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  19. revmwc

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    Does He give them every opportunity to be saved? Of course He does, but they choose to reject Him and their rejection is not a surprise to Him. To limit His knowing before hand to just knowing people would is to limit God isn't it?
     
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  20. TCassidy

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    Rev believes in works based salvation, but lacks the honestly to admit it.

    He really thinks God looks ahead in time and sees some good work we do (believe, repent, accept, walk the aisle, pray a prayer, whatever) and that good work qualifies us for heaven.

    Not only is that a false gospel, it is heresy and apostasy. :(
     
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