God loves us and wants us to be saved

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I have heard some people say, “God loves us and wants us to be saved.” I agree with that statement. He wanted us to be saved so badly that He fixed it where we had no choice in the matter and that we couldn’t lose that
    salvation even if we wanted to. He determines to save, then buddy, you are saved and once saved…always saved. How could it be otherwise? Why would anyone want it to be otherwise?
     
  2. PreachTony

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    Shouldn't the title of this thread read "God loves the Elect and wants the Elect to be saved?"

    After all, according to predestinarian / election theology, God obviously does not love us (humanity as a whole), He only loves the Elect (a predestined group selected before the foundation of the world, leaving the remainder totally damned).
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

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    So what? In your synerio God is an inept figure just hoping the sinner comes to his or her sences and gives themselves to Him....if not, its down to hell they go. Let me ask you, do you allow a child to cross a busy intersection without supervision ....id say no because I know the child isn't equipped to make such a risky decision...ie I wouldn't gamble on the kids life. You are right, that is love....that is a responsible adult looking after one of lesser intellect.

    But here is what I want you to splain to me Tony is how a loving God allows anyone to go to hell....see the logical thing to do is give everyone a pass and make sure we all get saved.....so why doesn't that happen? Can you answer that....cause I sure cant.
     
  4. Rippon

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    This is an undue concentration of "a loving God" would never do this or that. He ought to do this or that.

    God is love. But He is also Holy. A Holy God cannot make allowance for the consequences of sin to be by-passed. In the name of tolerance these days folks want God to conform to our ways. But it doesn't work that way. God's ways are higher than ours.
    It may sound logical to you, but it sure isn't biblical. The Holy God of the Bible will not allow sin to be ignored. He graciously forgives all of the sin of some --and does not pardon the sin of others. He has the perfect right to do so.
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    Didn't want to step on any toes did you?

    That is the best definition of irresistible grace I ever heard... Brother Glen:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Rippon, please! I didn't say it is biblical...however these fellows are not arguing from that prospective. They want logic and they want God to operate like flawed human nature. A bit of their own rational is required here since bible doesn't scour with this group.
     
  7. convicted1

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    Is God's love found in anything not related to Jesus Christ?
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    PreachTony

    Of course God loves the elect. That is part of His purpose to chose them....He loved them while they were still sinners, and quite unlovely.

    That would be according to scripture....PT...do you think God will love people in Hell...eternally as they are tormented without mercy?

    How was the love of God manifested to Goliath?

    Are you suggesting He does not love the elect, or it is wrong for God to Elect sinners?

    PT....Do you believe God is only wise? Why not trust what the scripture says about this as per Gen 18:25?
    24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

    25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

    27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

    28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

    30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
    31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.



    The fall left all men dead in sin and condemned.....God does not have to save anyone , except He purposed in Himself to do so...a multitude that no man can number......You are not suggesting that God is unrighteous in this are you?
     
  9. robustheologian

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    God has a providential love (Matt. 5:45) and a particular love (Eph. 5:25). God loves all but He especially loves the elect (1 Tim. 4:10).
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    That's a good question!
     
  11. Rolfe

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    If I understand your post correctly, nature.

    That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. -St. Matthew 5:45.
     
    #11 Rolfe, Apr 13, 2015
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  12. PreachTony

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    That's a bit of an unfair characterization of the Free Will view of God, but then again, both our sides are prone to misrepresenting the other. We don't believe in an inept God. We believe in a God that, in His sovereignty, granted man freedom to make a choice concerning salvation. To us, this is completely in line with the scriptures. God still knows what choice we will make.

    In the predestinarian model, God does not allow for choice. Hew does not allow for option. How is it accounted as love to never allow someone to make any choice for themselves? How is it accounted as love to say to one group of people that they were never chosen, and so had no hope to begin with, too bad, so sad, but Hell is your future and you don't get a chance to change that?

    We don't believe God sends anyone to Hell. If a person dies and goes to hell, they do so of their own volition, having rejected God. In the predestinarian model, God has chosen one group for glory and one group for damnation. In Calvinism, God does send people to hell, no matter how people try to dress it up with flowery language.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    My point Tony is that their volition is corrupted by sin. It takes God to correct the situation & I view that as a precious gift because I was a sinner & a very serious enemy of God (in all His forms). I would have gladly chosen hell. If not for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, I would have also been bound for hell.

    See & I am beyond even attempting to understanding God's ways. I am reminded of Gods conversation with Lot. I'm not sure Lot ever did get an answer from God, but He was content knowing God is in charge. Now I have wrestled with God as to why..... why take people away from life, why the pain & suffering of cancer, why are people (good people made sick mentally & physically), why are people cruel and I don't get answers....I can only solace myself with the knowledge that God exists, I love Him & He has my back. And Tony, with that I am content.:godisgood:
     
    #13 Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2015
  14. Iconoclast

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    PreachTony

    We don't believe God sends anyone to Hell. If a person dies and goes to hell, they do so of their own volition, having rejected God. In the predestinarian model, God has chosen one group for glory and one group for damnation. In Calvinism, God does send people to hell, no matter how people try to dress it up with flowery language.[/QUOTE

    When a person starts with a wrong theological base it leads to error after error.....now you are denying the clear biblical truth that God sends sinners into hell......
    when Jesus says depart from me......He just sends them away from heaven.....then the sinner places himself in hell???

    Can you see how foolish this is?
     
  15. Van

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    Same old Chestnut, recycled yet again!

    How many times is this bogus argument going to be posted?

    1) Is God inept? Nope. So a strawman argument.
    2) Yes God desires all men to be saved, yet all men are not saved, because God wants them saved according to His purpose!
    3) Are unregenerate people equipped to seek God and trust in Christ? Yes, Matthew 23:13. The claim of Calvinism is unbiblical.
    4) God demonstrated His love toward us when Christ died for us, while we were yet sinners. He laid down His life, not only for the elect, but as a "ransom for all."
    5) When a fallen person autonomously repents and turns to Christ, he brings glory to God, fulling God's purpose of creation. Compelling everyone to either heaven or Hades would not bring glory to God, and thus is not God's purpose or plan.
     
  16. PreachTony

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    Allow me to clarify, Brother Icon... What I meant, and failed to clearly articulate, is that we believe God has not chosen one group for salvation (to take into Heaven) and one group for damnation (to send to Hell). God is the ultimate judge, ergo He assigns reward or punishment. What I mean by saying "God doesn't send anyone to Hell" is that we do not believe God has decided that person's fate before they ever draw breath. While we believe He knows what that person will do, we also believe He grants us a free will to accept or reject. If He draws us and we spurn Him, then it is our own rejection of Him that seals our fate as hell-bound.

    Of course, if you disagree with free will then you do not see it that way. I disagree with predestination in the salvific sense of Calvinism, so I don't see it the way you see it.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Pt.

    Again.......clearly the bible speaks of God electing a multitude of persons to be in Christ.......why or how would you deny this....

    All men were condemned in Adam.....as a result of the fall..romans3:23....

    Mans will has nothing to do with it...jn 1:13.....
     
  18. PreachTony

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    To quote Romans, you have to acknowledge this verse, as well:
    It states clearly that by one man sin, and thereby death, entered the world. So also, by one man, the free gift came to all.
     
  19. convicted1

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  20. Yeshua1

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    Is the love of God shown to us though in the destiny of those who have rejected jesus asa their Lord, so God is really letting them have their 'will?"
     

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