GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Downsville, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. Downsville

    Downsville
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    Many have come in the name of Christ, saying we need not keep the 10 commandments. Some will say we need keep 9 out of 10 but its more like 8 out of 10 that "they" practice to keep.I was raised a catholic(an alter boy)and was told on many a sunday to kneel before their standing images and pray.Theres 2 commandments broken right there.The bible clearly points out that in order to be saved we must practice to keep all 10 as they were given, including the sabbath and no graven images. In James the scriptures say if you practice to break 1, your breakin them all. You are a transgressor.Is there anything in the scriptures that tell us we are no longer to keep the 10 commandments?
     
  2. TWade

    TWade
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    Friend,

    The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. It is God's GIFT, and not our works that saves us (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ! Acts 16:30-31

    For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
     
  3. Me2

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    must we forget that the 10 commandments are the parameters that the new spirit we receive from God operates under.

    Jesus fulfilled the law or the 10 commandments by living them. taking away the enmity between man and God.

    Do you think that by breaking them once again will not bring about the enmity between man and God... again.

    thats why we live by grace through faith.

    cause we will break them ( the law) we will need a mediator to bring about friendship with God once again.

    the law (10 Commandments) is an integral part of the spirit of Christ. It can be the law of life or it can be the law of death.

    the law is written in our hearts people. we are witnesses to its holiness and rightness.

    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

    Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
    Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
    Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    Me2
     
  4. Yelsew

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    Downsville,

    Jesus is the Lamb of God, slain before creation! His purpose in being made manifest in the flesh is to seek and save that which was lost.

    Man is what was lost because of sin. The very first man sinned, and sin has been a part of man ever since.

    God gave man the law, so that man would know what sin is, and repent from sinning. And so that man would know the penalty for sinning which is death. But man failed in the law. So God in his Great mercy gave to mankind his only begotten son. Conceived by God in a lowly virgin girl named Mary.

    Jesus' purpose was to be that Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He took upon himself the sins of the world, and died upon the cross of Calvary. His death is the Once for all atonement for the sins of all mankind from Adam to the last man who will believe. Atonement does not equal salvation! But it does remove the penalty of sin from mankind so that man is no longer obligated to die because of his sin.

    So what is salvation? It is the removal from judgment and the second death of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ, even on his name.

    Jesus told Nicodemus a teacher of Israel, that "whosoever believeth on the Son of God, shall not perish but have everlasting life. He went on to say that whosoever believes, is not judged but whoever does not believe is judged by his unbelief.

    Scriptures tell us that it is appointed unto man, once to die then the judgment. This is the first death and all mankind are subject to this death because it is the method God made to separate the man from his flesh. No flesh can enter heaven, because flesh is corruptable, and nothing corruptable can enter heaven.

    Once we are separated from our flesh, our deeds are tested as if by fire. The good we have done survives the fire in the manner of gold, silver, and precious stones. The bad that we have done, is consumed by the fire in the manner of wood, hay, and stubble which leaves only worthless ash. But we ourselves survive as if through fire, being stripped of our deeds, every thing we did or had. Then all mankind are separated into two groups, referred to as sheep and goats. The sheep are those who have the mark of faith in Jesus Christ. The goats are all who do not have that mark of faith in Jesus. The sheep are taken to be separated from the goats and to be with Jesus where they will live evermore. The goats are Judged by God the Father, and lacking faith are found unworthy and are cast into the lake of fire, called the second death.

    So, because Jesus paid the penalty for sin by dying on the cross, where his blood was shed in atonement for the sins of the world. Man kind is not held accountable for the sins of the world. And because all of man's deeds are tested as if by fire and only the good works surviving are laid at the feet of Jesus. And because the sheep are separated from the goats, there is only one criteria by which mankind is judged by God the father and that is by FAITH ALONE, faith in God, God the son, Those who have it are not judged, those who don't have no excuses, are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

    Now to your question. If we, who believe in Jesus, sin, we are instructed to confess our sins to God and receive his forgiveness and cleansing from our sins. If failing to obey any of the 10 Commandments is sin, that too is covered by the Blood of Jesus, but by confession we are made new.

    Believers in God's son will do the best of their ability to keep from breaking any of the Law of God. But if we fail and we all will fail, we can confess our sins and be forgiven. We no longer have the penalty of sin hanging over us as a dark cloud for we are the children of God by believing in God's only begotten son.

    So, don't fear retribution from God unless you choose to deliberately continue in sin. If you do so, God will turn you over to your reprobate mind, and you will eventually lose your faith and salvation. That is why we are oft reminded to repent from sinning.

    Hope this helps your understanding.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Downsville,

    The idea of keeping the Law is the spirit of Galatianism; this means that people think they are saved by faith and kept by works or by keeping of the Law. Christians are saved by their faith and God keeps us in the faith. According to your theory, Catholicism teaches that people are saved by faith and kept saved by the keeping of the Ten Commandments.

    In reality we are saved by Christ alone, by His grace alone, via our faith trust in Him. [John 3:16]

    You are right in saying that if we offend at one point of the Law we are guilty of offending God in all ten points of the Law. This is made fact in James 2:10. The whole point of James writing this is to say that nearly all of us, if not all, offend in one of these Ten Commandments. This is to finally push us to the realization that we are sinful human beings though we strive for Christian perfection. Not one of us can make it to Heaven by a perfect walk of Christian performance with Almighty God. This again pushes us to reality that we cannot do it by ourselves. We need God's Advocate Jesus Christ to plead our case before the throne of a most holy God. {I John 2:1-2; Hebrews 7:25} Jesus is our Advocate in Heaven and the Holy Spirit is our Advocate in our hearts [John 14:16] to keep us on the 'straight and narrow.' [Matt. 7:14]

    The beautiful thing to understand about free grace is that once we have a vital relationship to Jesus, we desire to keep not only these basic Ten Commandments, but we are eager to obey Him in all things. We find no joy in displeasing Jesus, our Savior. The inner Advocate of the Spirit reminds us to do His perfect will and we never even want to disobey His Ten Commandments given by Moses.

    Grace and truth are the new high water marks of our covenant of grace since the Cross while the Ten Commandments were the directives of the former covenant of Law. [John 1:17; Hebrews 8:5-6]

    The first of the Ten Commandments are directed to our relationship toward God: Exodus 20: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me; . . . make unto thee any graven images; . . . not take the name of the Lord in vain; and the sabbath. The last six deal with our relationship toward those around us. Honor father & mother; not kill, commit adultery; not steal; . . . not bear false witness; and Thou shalt not covet. This was the mandate of the Law.

    We are governed by another law the law of love. Jesus said under this better covenant of grace that we ' . . . should love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.' [Matt. 22:37] This is the first and great commandment. This verse is the counterpart of Exodus 20:3-8, which deals with our relationship toward our Lord, or the first four of the Ten Commandments.

    The last six of the Old Covenant Ten Commandments is dealt with in Jesus new way in Matthew 22:39 under His second great commandments. What is it? 'Love thy neighbor as thyself.' When you love those around you as a Christian should, you will also not be in violation of the commandments which say, 'Honor Father & Mother; not kill, not commit adultery; not steal; not bear false witness, not covet.'

    We are not called on to obey the Ten Commandments, but rather the two commandments of Matthew 22:37-40, which are to love the Lord and our neighbor.

    To be brought under the bondage of the Ten Commandments is a return to Galatianism. God speaking through Paul says that righteousness does not come by the Law, otherwise Christ, His death and atonement are useless; in this case we can try to save ourselves but this is impossible.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Downsville,

    Under the New Covenant - the Law is "written in the heart" as Heb 8 reminds us and as 2Cor 3 says -- on "Tablets of the human heart".

    The unit of 10 commandments is referenced in Eph 6:1-4 and shown to be "authorotative for practice" both in Eph 6 and in James 2 "So live and act as those who are to be judged by the Law of Liberty". Examples of quotes from that Law in James 2 - are in fact quoted from the 10 commandments.

    As Christ said "Pre-Cross" in John 14:15 "If you Love Me - Keep My commandments" - which is itself a quote from the 3rd commandment.

    So "yes" God's ten commandments remain.

    As Paul references them in Romans 7 - showing that they still "define sin" we may be certain that the Christian is not "called to rebelion against God".

    Paul's closing argument in Romans 3 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God through faith? God forbid! Rather we Establish the Law of God"!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Carson Weber

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    Robert,

    Do you mean to tell us that the Sabbath is written on the human heart? Do you know of any Gentiles who - apart from any subsequent evangelization - kept the Sabbath because it was on their heart before it was given to them by means of God's revelation?

    Ray,

    What does Paul say about keeping the law?

    Pagans (Rom 8:7-8):

    "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Christians (Rom 8:9-13):

    "But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh -- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live."

    You had written, "Catholicism teaches that people are saved by faith and kept saved by the keeping of the Ten Commandments"

    But Paul tells us that if we live according to the flesh, we will die, and to not keep the moral precepts of the Law is to live according to the flesh: that is, to continue in sin.

    Catholicism does not teach that the actual keeping of the 10 Commandments saves us but rather what Paul teaches: that we are saved by God's grace received in faith and that God's grace enables us to keep the Law, and if we sin grieviously against God, then we will die.
     
  8. Downsville

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    Come on guys
    I thought maybe this would unite the catholics,baptist,methodist and all you sunday keepers to fight this 10 commandment observer. Your still fightin each others denominations although youse pretty much all believe that as a believer you need not keep the 10 commandments as written by the finger of GOD.You know what they say about a house divided?
     
  9. dianetavegia

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    Downsville, your profile confuses me. Do you not go to church at all? If not, I hope you'll seek out a good Baptist church in your area and get involved!

    You mentioned.... 'you know what they say about a house divided' Mark 3:25: "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand." Jesus said this after He cast out a demon and was accused of using demonic power to do it; the point being that it would be rather silly for Satan to cast out Satan.

    Your reference to James 2:10 is off base. 'For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all!' is not a command to strive to keep every JEWISH law but to show us that we are unable to be sin free and are only cleansed and pure through the Life Blood Sacrifice of Christ Jesus our Lord and that our actions will show what is in our hearts! It's VERY important to not take scripture out of context.

    This passage is an AWANA verse and teaching that begins with our 5 year olds.

     
  10. Downsville

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    Hi dianetavegia
    I went to a baptist church for about a year, maybe 12 years ago. It was at that time i started reading the whole bible and not just believing the 1 liners used by the tv evangilist.As i read and studied the whole word i came to see that maybe the whole world had been decieved as the bible said.Also went to a 7th day adventist study group after leaving the baptist church and there were many things they believed that were contrary to the bible. Im sure theres a church out there somewhere tha follows the scriptures but i have not found one.
     
  11. Downsville

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    Then again
    Maybe there are no specific temples(churches) that i can attend. It can be rather confusing since there is a scripture that says we should not forsake gathering together as some have done.So ill keep lookin.

    ACTS 17 [24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    MARK 14 [57] And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,[58] We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

    ZECH.6 [12] And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:[13] Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

    1COR.3 [16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?[17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    2COR.6 [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.[12] Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.[13] Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.[14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?[15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?[16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.[17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,[18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty

    EPH.2 [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    I guess you could argue the same point for images used in worship.

    Your argument above - is that a non-Christian should "have the New Birth". A non-Christian should "have the Law of God written on his heart" and that without having access to scripture at all - should "automatically know - not to use images of things in heaven or earth during worship AND should know to keep Christ the Creator's 7th-day memorial of creation made a holy day in Gen 2:3".

    I am not sure "how you get that" from what I said above.

    When Christ said "IF you Love Me keep My Commandments" John 14:15 pre-cross are you thinking that His Hebrew listeners would not have "known" about Christ the Creator's 7th-day memorial of creation made a holy day in Gen 2:3?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Debby in Philly

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    Yep, there's bad Baptist churches out there. And of every other denomination, too. I just hope you're not looking for a perfect church, because there aren't any of those either! If we are trusting in the saving grace of the Lord Jesus, then at best we are sinners saved by grace. We can't possibly be perfect. Keeping God's commands is something we try to do with the Lord's help because we want to live for Him in appreciation and respect for what He did for us.
     
  14. Lorelei

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    Read Hebrews through. The law (which was given to the Hebrews, never the Gentiles) is addressed and proven to be obsolete. It shows how our new High Priest, Jesus Christ has offered the only sacrifice able to take away sin once and for all!

    ~Lorelei
     
  15. dianetavegia

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    Well said Debby!
    Since WE are the church, and none of us is perfect save in Christ Jesus our Lord, Downsville won't find a perfect 'church' until that which is perfect has come.

    Downsville.... is your username a town or are you sort of down in the dumps? Hope not!

    The Joy of the Lord is my strength!

    Diane
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Carson Weber,

    The Law is still viable under this new covenant but only as God's standard to lead us to Christ. Without the Law sinners would not know what is sin and would have no guilt which is necessary for them to search and find Christ or to be found of Him. You well know that the Law was our schoolmaster. [Galatians 3:24]

    After we have found Christ Jesus we are no longer bound to the Law, for righteousness, because we have the inner Law of love in the Person of the Spirit who encourages us to be always pleasing unto Him. [Romans 10:4] 'Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one who believes.'

    Furthermore, the former covenant [Hebrews 8:6-7] has faded and ceases to exist. [Hebrews 8:13] 'A new covenant He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.' In that the Law is lifeless in bringing a pure heart to sinners by way of human righteousness, we must depend on the merit of another agency which is His righteousness placed to our account. [Romans 4:5 & Galatians 3:24]

    The latter passage indicates that we are justified by our faith, which is a once for all act of God on the human soul. [Romans 8:1] Copies of the original on this last passage indicate that the words 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit' are not found in the text. But, let us not forget that the Christian will walk after the inner guidance of the Law and the Holy Spirit.

    The true Christian will be saved forever and if he sins it will be only a temporary break of fellowship with the Son, our Savior. [I John 1:7] What keeps us saved is not only our human effort to please God, but the permanent indwelling of the Spirit in our hearts. [I John 3:9] 'Whosoever is born of God does not practice sinning, because His seed {the Spirit} remains in him, and he cannot practice sinning, because he is born of God. Someone who is born again spiritually does not die, because the life of God {not the Law} is the inner Advocate of the human heart/life. The Greek word for Comforter is the word Advocate or defense attorney. [John 14:16] He is the gift of God to everyone who believes and is justified by Christ Himself.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Since I don't get a chance to do this very often...

    Carson said
    Agreed.

    In Fact Paul prefaces this in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God"

    In Romans 2:13-16 we have the case of Paul saying about Justification and the Law of God "IT is not the hearers of God's Law who are Just before God but the Doers of The Law will be Justified"

    So the same law that condemns us as sinners while we are lost (so the law still exists and is still valid - hint hint) - turns to become the "LAW written on the heart" - "Written on the tablets of the human heart" 1Cor 3:3 in the life of "Faith".

    The Law of Love found in the OT - Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 - remains.

    The unit of 10 -- remains Eph 6:1-4 with the 5th commandment as the first one in the unit "With a promise".

    And as you said Carson - the law written on the heart is not "why we are saved" it is merely the result of the New Covenant - the New Birth, Justification and the Sanctification process that follows.

    "For if anyone is in Christ he is a New Creation".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    The "confusing part" for me regarding Carson's question on "natural law" having some bearing on whether we still have 10 commandments or a reduced 9 (I am guessing that was his point) --

    Is this statement by the Pope --

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. thessalonian

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    Once again this thread has turned in to a Catholic bashing session as they all do. Oh well. Someone should think, well the Protestants can't come to an agreement on the issue of the commandments themselves contrary to God's holy word:

    "The way we may be sure that we know Jesus
    is to keep his commandments.
    Whoever says, "I know him," but does not keep his commandments
    is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

    Now either you have to believe you can get in to heavne without keeping the commandments or you have to believe that you better know them and by the grace of God follow them. Bob's Sabaath comment is bogus. Jesus had the power to change the law with regard to the sabaath and did. He did not remove the command but changed the day on which it is observed. Only Bob's interprutation of the NT of which he has no binding authority to impose on others is contrary to this 2000 year old practice of gathering on Sunday for worship in Mass. Of course a Cathoilc may do this any day and we are to worship every day. Bob's legalistic approach to the commandments becomes a following them out of neccessity rather than love and does not capture the broader scope of the commandments that Jesus expresses in Matthew 5 (you have heard, that a man who has relations with a woman who is not his wife has committed adultey, but I say any man who looks lustfully at another woman has committed adultery", etc.). Such leagism has people saying, "I'm pretty good. I haven't killed anybody in my whole life.". Whoopie. There's alot more than the 10 that we have to focus on. Bob's microfocus on the 3rd (your fourth) keeps him from seeing the broader picture. Further he denies the authority of Christ, passed on to his Church ("he who hears you hears me, All authority has been given to me, therefore.... (mt 28)").

    Blessings

    Blessing

    [ December 29, 2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  20. thessalonian

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    Out of context Ray. Sorry.

    Galatians 3:10
    For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

    We don't perform the 10 commandments we avoid doing them (except for #1 #3(your 4) and #4(your 5). Following the law and obeying the commandments are two different things. Galatians 3 is about following the Jewish law which requires circumcision etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. That was in fact done away with by Christ. But the commandments were not done away with as can bee seen from:

    1 John 5:2
    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.



    It's pretty plain folks. And if you read the context you will see that the commandments are laws of love and we are required to love. If we do not love then we are not in him. We are not among the saved. Read all of 1 John 4. In fact all of 1 John is great. We of course cannot do this without his grace. And we are saved by grace. I will not quibble if someone wants to say that our acts of love are only a sign that we are saved. That grace is active in our life for it is the grace that motivates us to do good (upon which we are judged Rom 2:8) that saves us.

    Blessings
     

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