God's double decree of predestination !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Rom 9:11-23

    11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

    12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    God's double decree of Predestination, that from all eternity, not based upon anything of His creatures, neither good nor evil, God did detemine that some of His creatures should have everlasting life, and that some should have everlasting damnation on account of their sins.

    Prov 16:4

    4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    God made the wicked for the day of evil, that is for their day of destruction to be meted out to each one of them in the day of His wrath and Last Judgment.

    Job 21:30

    That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
     
    #1 savedbymercy, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2011
  2. convicted1

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    Are you saying you believe in double predestination? I do not believe it that way, nor do I believe that God has "hand picked" those for salvation and left the others out, without any hope whatsoever. Now, I have always thought that someone/anyone hold to predestination, that you'd have to hold to it being double. God would not be "active" in the "elect", and "passive" with the "non-elect". IOW, when God chose His elect, He predestined them to heaven. Now, when God chose not to choose the non-elect, He predestined their fate to hell, by not offering His Son to them, calling out to them, drawing them, etc. So, to believe in predestination, one has to hold to it being double....or that's the way I see it.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  3. quantumfaith

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    "I believe" the whole intent and purpose of Romans 9 is to Broaden the the scope of salvation, not to narrow it. Paul addressing the pride and misdirection of the Jews...."Now you, if you call yourself a Jew, if you rely on the Law and brag about your relationship to God. (2:17) I think the point being, the Jews had become prideful that they were the "chosen" , they had been granted such a special measure, such as the law and rather than humbling themselves as a nation (people) they became prideful and corrupted that unique calling into regulatory rule keeping.

    Romans 2-3 Paul speaks of this highlighting the fact that as good and special as the Jews think that they are, they are in fact no different than the Gentiles, (whom the Jews thought of as dogs, dogs in oriental culture as being filthy creatures).

    Despite the fact that the Jews thought more highly of themselves, and to some degree it is understandable, being that they were "entrusted with the very words of God." Paul is establishing that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile (3:9-18) Being "jewish" gives one no automatic claim on salvation rather as Paul claims (radical to jewish ears)

    "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly....."No a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly, and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the spirit not by the code of law. Such a mans praise is not from men, but from God."

    How offensive to the Jews of Paul's day, he is now claiming that the gentiles (dogs) now how every right as the Jews to being justified. (3:29-30)

    I believe Romans 9 is now the culmination of Paul being sorrowful that the "ethnic" Jews have rejected the Messiah. Now the Gentiles are granted the privilege to be "chosen" as "not as though God's word had failed".

    The problem being that how can God reject his "chosen" ones, the Jews and open the doors of justification to the "gentile dogs". Paul answers that challenge with the simplicity that God is Sovereign and can offer and include anyone he so chooses. Who is it that God chooses to save and justify?

    Galatians 3:7-8

    "Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham.


    Paul’s burden, then, in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God’s election but to broaden it. He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless of their ethnicity. Election, then, is first and foremost a corporate notion: God has chosen for Himself a people, a corporate entity, and it is up to us by our response of faith whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined to salvation.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

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    So Quantum do you think it all really rests with man to decide, that God sets the table & then waits in anticipation for man to say yes or no? BTW, this is not to put you on the spot or stir argument ...it is an attempt to honestly understand your prospective.

    Thanks
     
  5. Rippon

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    Of course the Lord "hand-picked" (chose,selected,elected) those He so desired. When it says "For He chose us in him before the foundation of the world",when it says that "In love he predestined us us for adoption to sonship through Christ Jesus,in accordance with his pleasure and will", when it says that "In him we were chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" what else are we to conclude?
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    BTW, that is scriptural.....Right.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Why would you think God would predestine anyone to Hell? Why wouldnt he just leave them to their own selves. You would think, if they had free will & some good in them (even with a sin nature) as Winman attests to, then they would be more than able to workout their own salvation/ or not.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Its because the logic follows If God Only selected or chose a people for election by not choosing others he made the decision to not elect them. Just like the elect don't choose themselves according to calvinism neither do the non-elect choose their state. Thus God predestines people to hell based on a decision by a man who lived 6,000-7,000 years ago.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Interestingly, it was the doctrine of the Resurrection that once that got people all riled up. When Paul was preaching on Mar's Hill, they loved every minute of it until he brought up the resurrection and then they quickly got lost. Election was no problem with them but they could not handle the thought of life from the dead. Today, it’s the other way around...Resurrection? yes! yes! yes! Election? no! no! no!
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Or maybe HE (God) has a reason to do it & he isnt telling anyone. Isn't that His prerogative? Then maybe he is telling the elect, "it is my business, not yours"
     
  11. webdog

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    We are to conclude it is IN HIM we are chosen....not chosen to be in HIm.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    Could be but either way you look at it. He elects people to heaven and to hell. However, Keep in mind according to Calvin there is nothing about the individual which merits election. Therefore God's decision is not based on anything that the person is or does or has. So God's decision is only according to factors that have no relation to the people he selected or those he did not select.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    That is assuming their view of election and yours is the same. It may very well be different especially considering Greek Philosophy with regard to election.
     
  14. quantumfaith

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    Yes, EWF. I think it is "up to man" to exercise faith and belief and choose NOT to accept the Grace, Love and provision of God with respect to salvation.
     
  15. webdog

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    ...hence the entire point of accountability both in salvation and reprobation.
     
  16. quantumfaith

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    EWF, I don't think it is the doctrne of election that gets us all "riled up", rather it is our differences as to how we understand this doctrine, which by the way, no one denies being addressed in scripture.
     
  17. billwald

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    Read Job. This world is a war game between God and Satan where God wrote the rules and Satan hasn't caught on yet.
     
  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    FROM 1689 Confessions of Faith

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Understanding is simple....Just reference Baptist Confessions of Faith 1644 and/or 1889.
     
  20. Thinkingstuff

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    Exactly what I said Calvin holds to. However this is what I find troublesome.
    What are these things really saying? I don't deny or find troublesome that God has eternal and Immutable purpose or a secret council or good pleasure. However, none of these things are defined and thus is what they are really saying is that God makes election based on ambiguity or even (the lord forbid) Chance. Who's to say randomness doesn't meet these definitions? Randomness certainly meets the eternal qualifier. And it meets immutable qualifier in the sense that if God consistently chooses in this manner and never changes mode then randomness fits there too. Randomness (a toss of the die or coin) can be his secret council or even good pleasure to do so. And if that is the case then randomness becomes the greater force in the universe than God. Nevertheless even if this isn't the case the terms remain ambiguous in definition and thus by ambiguous means God choses the elect. Thats what I find problematic in this view.
     

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