God's knowledge debate

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 21, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

    There are some things that may be difficult, but that doesn't negate the very clear biblical teaching that God "knows everything." One may say that God doesn't remember our sins. Sure, he doesn't "bring to mind" our sins. That doesn't mean he doesn't have knowledge of them. To teach this would negate ALL the other passages that say that God knows everything. It would also be reading something into the text that isn't there. It doesn't say God forgets. It doesn't say that God no longer knows. It says "remember no more." Any interpretation that teaches that God forgets is eisegesis.


    The above is a typical assertion made by those who deny God is all powerful and does what He says. The doctrine of inherent omniscience does not teach God unintentionally “forgets.” The doctrine states He intentional removes the knowledge from His mind and remembers it no more forever. He puts the knowledge out of his mind.

    Next we have the assertion the Bible teaches God knows everything. No verse or passage says or suggests this fiction. Not one. The Bible does say God is all knowing, but men have added God is all knowing about everything. This is simply adding to scripture.
    They choose to define “all” as referring to everything imaginable in these verses, but define “all” to mean all of whatever group or subject the author has in mind elsewhere in scripture. Thus the doctrine is incoherent.

    Does Psalm 147:5 say God’s understanding is infinite? No. The best translation of the word is innumerable. Which means it is beyond our ability to measure, thus unfathomable and unsearchable. But to conclude that understanding beyond our understanding is infinite is illogical and unnecessary. Thus an example of eisegesis.

    Hebrews 4:13 refers to our thoughts and hidden motives being laid bare to God, and does not address two issues. Does God obtain, i.e search us, all the time or does He sometimes not search our hearts. The verse does not say. Does this knowledge of His creatures include creatures in existence, or does it extend to creatures not yet created. The verse does not say. So to conclude this verse supports the “everything imaginable” doctrine is again an example of eisegesis.

    We could plow through all the listed verses and come to the same “where is the beef” conclusion, yet these verses were posted as if they actually supported the false doctrine.
     
    #1 Van, Jul 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2011
  2. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I cannot even pretend to know what another man knows, I'm not even going to try to figure out what God knows. All I know is Christ is fully God and fully man, and He is omniscient, yet didn't originate sin and didn't know some things while on earth (when bound to time...which conflicts the divine attribute of omnipresence)). In the same way the hypostatic union and Trinity are mysteries, I maintain this is as well. Try to figure it out everyone...I'll appeal to mystery.
     
  3. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Basic Christian doctrine is that God knows everything. I gave plenty of verses that when you look at what all of them say, it is very clear that "He (God) knows everything."

    Um, yes it does, but you refuse to agree with the Bible when it says that and then pretend that it doesn't say it.


    Number of passages that say something that God doesn't know = 0
    (btw, logical conclusion of God being eternal would mean that God knows everything, but I can still use Scripture.

    yes,it says it has no limits. God not knowing something would be a limit.
     
    #3 jbh28, Jul 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2011
  4. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that it's hard to understand. And as it is with the trinity, I'll just believe the Bible when it says that "He (God) knows everything." I don't have to fully understand something for it to be true. If that were the case, many things wouldn't be true. ;)
     
  5. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes, Webdog, it is ok to say the extent of God's knowledge is a mystery. What burns my toast is to claim God does not mean what He says because that does not fit with a man-made bogus solution of the mystery.
     
  6. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    This ought to be interesting to see how it develops. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    so you must burn your toast when you say that God didn't mean it when he said "he knows everything."
     
  8. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, some of us will quote direct passages that say that God knows everything. Others will post areas they don't understand and ignore the other passages. (or pretend they know how to translated better than all other translators)
     
  9. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Christian Doctrine comes from the Bible. Saying something is taught in the Bible but not providing sound evidence does not cut the mustard.

    Lets look at the next two verses listed as evidence that God knows everything imaginable.

    Job 23:10 says God knows the way we take, which demonstrates knowledge of our choices, but does not address His possible knowledge of our future choices. So this verse does not support in the slightest the contention, it must be read into it, i.e. eisegesis.

    Psalm 103:14 says God knows what we are made of. Well duh. He created us. Does this address knowledge of everything imaginable? Nope. So just a non-germane verse tossed into the mix to give the impression of massive support for a doctrine not actually found in scripture.
     
  10. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I said, look at the verses as a whole. And why don't you address I John 3:20. I would love to see how you are going to try to move around that. I'm going to guess that you are going to try to translate it.
     
  11. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, when Jesus said the very hairs of our head are ALL numbered, that certainly sounds like God knows everything. And I lean heavily toward this. But at the same time, there is much language from God himself that suggests he knows things in time. For instance, when God says he looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God, I can't help but ask why this is necessary. If he already knows, then why does he speak as though he must look down in time? And as Van says, the scriptures say he searches our hearts. Why? Why would he need to search if he already knows?

    So, I am not saying God isn't omniscient, I am simply saying I cannot understand some scripture.

    But I don't believe God is misleading ever. He says the absolute truth at all times. But that is the very reason I have difficulty dismissing MANY scriptures where God speaks as if he knows in time. And then again, he also says he knows the end from the beginning.

    I wouldn't call this mystery, because he has not hidden this, he plainly declares it. I think I would say like David that he is too wonderful for us to understand.
     
  12. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could be putting it into our language. Remember that God is also eternal, so God isn't sitting there not knowing, and then searching and finding out.
    Good. None of us will ever understand the Bible completely. The Bible clearly teaches that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it. That's how I look at denials of the biblical truth that God knows "beginning to the end"
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    If it's too wonderful to understand...isn't that a mystery to us? ;)

    6 in one hand, half dozen in the other :D
     
  14. jbh28

    jbh28
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is wonderful! That's something that we all can agree on!
     
  15. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    I alway us the NASB translation when asserting what the Bible says. Sometimes I refer to other translations, because they make the point better, but my position will always be consistent with the NASB. Otherwise, I might be tempted to translation shop to find a translation that agrees with my belief, even if the other well respected translations disagree.

    1 John 3:20 in the NIV says God knows everything. That is consistent with your view. However, comma, the NASB reads, "knows all things." So the question is "all things" about what. All things about everything? No. That is not the context. God knows all things about us, believers who come to Him in prayer. Thus this verse, too, provides no support for the contention. Notice in verse after verse where God's knowledge of man's heart is in view, the verse is taken out of context to support man-made doctrine.
     
  16. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    I better get a gold star for that one. :)
     
  17. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Depends what your definition of "is" is :laugh:
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with your earlier post.

    But we know God limits himself at times. God certainly limited himself when he wrestled Jacob and Jacob prevailed.

    So, PERHAPS God limits his knowledge as well. This would explain statements God made to Abraham when he was going to sacrifice Isaac, or when he said he was going down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if they had done according to the cry that came up to him, and if not I WILL KNOW.

    I don't dismiss scripture like this.

    Jesus certainly limited himself when he was made flesh.

    So, I believe this might be the explanation.
     
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    First, no scripture says God knows the end from the beginning. That is simply a misquote. The verse says God declares the end from the beginning.

    Second, consider this assertion: Remember that God is also eternal, so God isn't sitting there not knowing, and then searching and finding out. This assertion simply declares God does not mean what He says, when He says He searches our hearts. This false doctriine relys on nullifying scripture after scripture, and then adding to scripture after scripture, to pour a man-made doctrine into the text. Fiddlesticks. Where is the beef!
     
  20. freeatlast

    freeatlast
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not sure that is a good proof text and here is why. I believe that God knows everything as there is nothing except it come from God (I am speaking laws of nature, material things, spirit beings, and such). At the same time I do not believe that God decides everything that will take place. He has decided the beginning from the end, but in between He allows it to take its course bringing everything into His plan.

    However for the sake of argument let me ask a question. If God knows all of history for all eternity how does He know? Does he look down through history and see what will happen or does He ordain (cause) every single event in all eternity even your occasional hiccup?
     
    #20 freeatlast, Jul 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...