God's Love And Hate?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Ray Berrian, Mar 28, 2003.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems to me that God not only hates the sin in the sinner, but also eschews the rebellious, lost person. Note: Psalm 5:5, 7:11, 9:5, 9:17,10:3, 10:5, 11:5, 15:4, 28:5, 34:16, 35:5-6, 37:9 & 13, (I have 21 more references in Psalms) Notice Proverbs 1:27, 2:22, 3:32-33, 10:3, 10:29, 10:30, 11:4. But, on the other hand, John 3:16 reminds us that He loves all sinners. 'For God so loved the world . . . '

    It almost sounds like a contradiction. . It seems that God hates the sin and the sinner on one level, {Psalm 5:5} ' . . . thou hatest all workers of iniquity' but on the other level He extends His love toward lost sinners. 'God so loved the world . . . '

    I am interested in your thoughts. Are there any good explanations of this dilemma.
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmm...well, it seems to me that if the plain meaning of a gazillion passages in the Bible conflict with an interpretation based on an inferred meaning of one passage of the Bible, odds are you're interpreting that one passage wrong.
     
  3. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can't believe he said this :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :D

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess from what you men just said we should believe that God does not love sinners, merely because I did not point out enough of verses declaring His sovereign love toward the lost. Come now, we expect better things of you two.
     
  5. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry Brother Ray, you deserve better, however, I just came from the graveyard where I was surrounded by Arminian free-willers (Methodists and a Church of God minister), members of my wife's family who each time we get together they coner me on these 'doctrines of men.'

    Today they wanted to disprove perserverance of the saints by any means other than continued good works; yet maintain salvation freely by Grace.

    Go figure. Salvation is free, but to be kept must be worked for, does this not render salvation ultimately depended upon nothing other than works?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, in practice, or at least from the writings of some, in Calvinistic "perseverance", you can't make claim of assurance unless you continue in good works to the end. Why don't you hit them with that?
     
  7. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    I forget who it was who it was who came up with this analogy, but that's like saying, "Here, you can have this Mercedes Benz for free. All you need to do to keep it is pay me $1,800 per month."
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, maybe you have good reason to expect better from Dallas.

    Numbers don't necessarily matter (sometimes they do), but I'm perfectly serious about the conclusion. The problem is that most of the gazllion passages are perfectly clear, and you only need one to be perfectly clear vs. one to be ambiguous to settle half the argument. If your interpretation of anything ambiguous conflicts with the clear meaning of another scripture, chances are your interpretation of the ambiguous is wrong.

    Here's a clear passage:

    Psalm 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity."

    That's perfectly clear. Not only is any interpretation unnecessary, it is impossible to bend this verse into saying something other than what it says, because it is so specific. "You hate workers of iniquity."

    Here's the ambiguous passage:

    John 3:16 "God so loved the world"

    Interpretation is necessary. To what or whom is "world" referring? The world of those He has predestined to be righteous? The whole world? Is it just a generic reference to His creation, but isn't meant to refer to any collection of people, whether the elect or every human who ever lived? We don't know, because the verse doesn't get that specific.

    But Psalm 5:5 does get that specific.

    So, like I said, your interpretation of John 3:16 is likely to be wrong.
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you gentlemen need a couple more verses as to God's love toward sinners let me suggest I John 4:10, 'Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, {as sinners} and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.' Also, 'We love Him, because He first loved us.' {as sinners} [I John 4:19]

    Now how do we along with John 3:16 explain how God can love sinners in these verses and hate sinners in the post from me earlier this evening as noted in Psalms and Proverbs?
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks - now let's look at some of the alternatives:

    1. God loves all sinners and He lied in all those verses which say He hates sinners.

    2. God loves all sinners but the verses which say He hates sinners are translation errors or copyist mistakes.

    3. God loves His creation (the world) enough that He planned in advance to rescue His elect from their sin (thus not hating them, since He planned to make them righteous from the beginning), but continues to hate the sinners who remain in their sin.

    4. Everyone is a sinner. God hates everyone. God hates everyone so much that He sacrificed His Son on the off-chance some of them might believe it of their own free will so He could love them instead.

    5. God hates everyone, and salvation is a hoax.

    Feel free to add more options, but of the above, which harmonizes best with all of Psalm 5:5, John 3:16, and 1 John 4:10?
     
  11. William C

    William C
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can you say "straw man?"

    Do you hate your mom and dad, Nick?
     
  12. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    But God demonstrated his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8).

    This makes it apparent that God loved us when we were sinners. That contradicts a God who completely hates sinners.

    If we think about it, at one point we were all sinners. Did God hate us? Why would God offer salvation to those who he hated? That just doesn't make sense.... I agree that it is a paradox, but God does love the sinner. How, I just don't know.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Npetreley,

    Option four is probably as close to Biblical truth that you have offered us.

    These are the exceptions. There is no 'off chance' that some 'might' believe. In spite of His perfection in calling sinners to Himself, many will refuse Him. Jesus has told us this 2,000 years ago. ' . . . many there be which go in thereat; because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.' [Matt. 7:13-14] How do we know this? We as Christians and students of the Bible believe in His Omnscience. You spoke about 'an off chance that some might believe.' We already know that some will find Him and receive everlasting life.

    I vote for option number four.

    Here is how I would rewrite number four.

    'Everyone is a sinner. God hates everyone. Because God hates sinners and their sins He sacrificed His Son, because He has always known that some would yield to Him through their freedom of the will, so He could love them instead of hating them.'
     
  14. William C

    William C
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think I would consider this so much a paradox as a lack of understanding the context, language and culture of that day.

    Christ told the disciples that if they were going to be his followers they must hate their mothers and fathers. Yet, the bible also teaches us to love and honor our parents. Is there a contradiction? No. Not if you understand their language and culture. This was a figure of speech so to speak.

    To hate something was to separate your self from it. Saying that God "hates" sinners is to say that God separates himself from them and their sinfulness. This goes to show God transcendance and otherness, not to mention his obhorence of sin. So too, a disciple was called to separate himself from his family for the call of spreading the gospel. This was expressed with the term "hate" because that is what people did to those they hated, they separated themselves.

    So, God can still love us while hating us. He can love us while remaining separate from us. The really cool thing about this is that he remedies the problem of separation through his plan of redemption so that we no longer have to be separate from Him. The veil of the temple was torn and now anyone can come to God through faith in Christ. (I really mean anyone when I say it, I think Jesus and the apostles did too [​IMG] )
     
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scott Emmerson,

    I like your answer. I think your are correct when you say that God does not completely hate the sinner. We can be assured that He in fact did love us or we would not be continuing to obey and love Him.

    I wonder how the other brethren see this near paradox?
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whoever wrote post March 29 1:04 a.m. offered some good thoughts. Brother Bill I think it was you.
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman
    Expand Collapse
    <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    "God's Love and Hate"

    A deliberate statement designed to misrepresent the action of God in the universe. It is not merely a 'hatred' of sin; and is not viewed as a hatred for the sinner it is the sin nature of the lost God does hate.

    This statement is equated to all the other 'emotional' appeals apart from which the gospel of 'free-willers and arminians could not stand, because it is not founded upon the truth of God that weds the Love of God to the Judgement of God.

    It is the bypassing of the judgement of God that I oppose. I do not know who God will effectually call, it may be an individual that is a mortal enemy of my own, yet I do not attempt to say that God cannot do this and though I do not have to fellowship with this person in this world, the 'joke' 'how shall we get along in heaven is also a poor appeal, offered only by those who do not have a full understanding of the work of Christ at the Cross nor the depth of the Grace of God.


    We first err when we assume we must build for God the Church; or the family he has purchased with His Blood.


    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yes, thank you Bro. Bill for this explanation of "hate". It's alarming how many people like to think that God arbitrarily "hates" some unconditionally in a sense of animosity that he doesn't hate them and other sinners.
     
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I feel the God Loves everybody theology is a stench in Gods nostrils and an abomination of scripture... Properly applied all scripture makes sense and is in perfect harmony with others... If it is something you have to do to get it... It does not apply to eternal salvation... A good rule of thumb to follow... If it applies in your walk with the Lord it is here... If it is something only God or his Son Jesus Christ can do it is hereafter... God loves with a perfect love his elect before they were born... And hates those not his with a perfect hatred!... The practice that this scripture contradicts this scripture is called scripture banging... And practiced by to many christians... It's either or not both if applied right!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think some may have misunderstood what I was saying. In Psalms and Proverbs it points out that God hates sinners and yet in the Gospel's He portrays Himself as loving the sinner. I know all Scripture must agree even though people don't always coalate them into a unified instruction from God.

    I suggested a two layer of understanding in helping to smooth out this dilemma. Number one God hates the sinner, the sins and as Brother Dallas told us, obviously, the sin nature coming from Adam to us. I think this shows God's attitude toward us in our sinful state. But there is another level that God loves all sinners [I Tim. 2:4 & 6; I John 2:1] and desires that they will be saved. [John 3:16] The Cross and atonement accomplished this for sinners, once for all time.

    God loved the Old Covenant people as much as He loves us. His method always has been to cleans His people in His atonement. During the time of Abraham they had to make an atonement via the lamb; under the Mosaic covenant they had to obey the Law and also make the animal sacrifice in order to please the Lord. When they obeyed Him in these ways, He cleansed them through His own blood. God has always desired fellowship with human beings and expressed Divine love toward everyone from Adam until the final judgment day.
     

Share This Page

Loading...