God's Soveriegnty

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777
    I was recently asked this question and thought it might make a good discussion. It appears to be from an unbeliever:

     
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    27
    Answer: While the question will not relate to my illustration, its a close cousin: Can God make a rock so big even He can't lift it?

    The question you were asked seeks to create a paradox, like the rock question, leading to an illogical conclusion. He is trying to begin with Christian doctrine but in his question omits crucial information about God.

    "Does GOD want CHRISTIANS to INFLICT OTHERS with their SINFUL NATURE"

    This part of the question makes the presupposition that God is the author of sin in light of His sovereignty. God is not the author of sin. The gentleman does not understand what God allows and decrees under His sovereign control by the means of second causes.

    "given that the offspring are CERTAIN to SIN, with NO GUARANTEE they will ever accept Jesus?"

    That all mankind, whether children of Christains or not, are certain to sin is both biblical and the universal testimony of mankind. That there is no guarantee that anyone will accept Jesus runs the gamet of the Arminian scheme. The doctrine of election is missing in the proposition.

    "If the answer to (A) is `YES`, how can Christains say that the problems in the world have NOTHING WHATSOVER to do with God, and still `KEEP A STRAIGHT FACE`."

    His concluding question is based on his previous assumptions concerning the will of God, his misunderstanding of it, the lack of knowledge concering the chief end of man and God's ultimate purpose in His creation, and the responsibility of mankind and their accountability to God.

    So what is the best answer for this man? First, begin with accurate information.

    "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree." LBCF, Chapter 3: Of God's Decree, Article 1.

    "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice." LBCF, Chapter 3: Of God's Decree, Article 3

    And article 5

    "Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto."

    And this,
    "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" Romans 9:20-21
     
  3. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a segment of God's will, but not the sum total of it. God also desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and God has revealed himself to man so that that end can come to pass.

    The challenge to the questioner is for HIM to present to YOU a coherent explanation for evil in the world that does not include God. He wants to take your world-view that is based upon a sovereign God and nit-pick it. Ask him for his coherent view that does not include God.
     
  4. Timsings

    Timsings
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would question the initial assumption that we inherit a sinful nature from our biological parents. My sin can be viewed as the result of my following the sinful example of my parents as they did for their parents and so on. On that basis, we have the choice to follow the example or break the chain. We always choose to follow the example of sin.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Free will?



    Excellent approach.
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your post has me curious. Do you not believe we are born with a sinful nature? Do you believe we are born as a "blank slate" with no sin nature?
     
  7. Timsings

    Timsings
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, I don't know one way or the other, and I don't think anyone else knows either. We can claim one of these two positions or something in between, but any position like this only helps us to structure or organize our ideas and beliefs. How we start out is not as important as how we end up. It is more important to me to come to faith in Christ and to live a life that exemplifies that faith than it is to hold to a bunch of doctrinal positions that are beyond our capacity to know. I don't know if this helps your curiosity or not. I'm still working with this, and I don't expect to find many, if any, firm answers. But that is not important either.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi, Tim! I think the Bible is pretty clear that we are born in sin.

    I have to say, I've never met a Baptist who did not believe in the sin nature.
     
  9. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    I would question this premise. (I'm assuming he's an atheist.) Form his point of view, his entire existence is merely a result of the choices that were made before him, and anyone's choice is based on his teaching and the countless stimuli by which he is constantly bombarded. Is he really influencing the future, or are his choices still being influenced by the past?
     
  10. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is good that this person does understands this premise, unfortunately, they do not understand the overarching Christian presupposition.


    Well, first off, we are commanded to "be fruitful and multiply" - and nowhere has that command been abrogated. It is a decree of God.

    Again, the presupposition is that Christians believe that God has nothing to do with the problems in the world. That is not true. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign over everything. The problem arises when/if we allow someone to detach God's involvement with God's purpose or will.

    That is, if we understand what Romans 8:28 truly teaches, then we can "keep a straight face". If not, we are no better than the naturalists.
     
  11. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    0
    yup



    concur - or a truly orthodox christian - unfortunately, old Pelagius is alive and well.
     
  12. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,535
    Likes Received:
    13
    Maybe not an unbeliever because unbelievers aren't generally aware of a sin nature. They see nothing wrong until it's showed them by God.
    I wanted to comment on Inheriting a sin nature. We do not inherit it, we are created with it from the begining. Adam and Eve sinned because they had the same sin nature, we all do.
    MB
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777

    This individual may just be repeating what they have heard said by Christians.
     
  14. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,535
    Likes Received:
    13
    LOL!
    Actually I believe this is what you have done. Because scripture never says anywhere we inherited anyones sin. In fact it says the opposite. Children are not held responsible for the sins of their fathers.
    MB
     
  15. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you aren't listening but presuming anothers view.

    He didn't say a child 'inherits' their fathers 'sins'.
    Scripture expounds that we are all born with a sin nature that manifests itself as that child grows. We are ALL born fallen men (mankind).

    EDITTED IN: -- And yes, it is an inherited trait that began with Adam and Eve was was passed on from them to their children, their childrens children, ect...
    You just can't get around it. Whether one holds to being born a "sinner" or being born with a "sin nature" the result is still the same - that the fallen nature is something that transpired from the fall of Adam and has been inparted to all his offspring. Thus we inherit because it didn't stop at Adam and Eve but was given to their children as well. However, that is not to say we pay for our parents sins nor that certain or any sins are imparted to the children and held accountable for them, but that the very nature from which our being comes is corrupted and depraved to the point that man can not help but "be" a sinner.
     
    #15 Allan, Aug 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2008
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777
    What?

    No one said such.

    No one said such. You need to reread the op.
     
  17. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,535
    Likes Received:
    13
    For some reason I mis- wrote forgive me Rev mitchel.
    MB
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777

    Done :thumbs:
     
  19. MB

    MB
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,535
    Likes Received:
    13
    Rev Mitchell
    thankyou
    MB
     

Share This Page

Loading...