God's Wrath Truly And Surely Averted

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bob Krajcik, May 31, 2005.

  1. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    God's Wrath Truly And Surely Averted

    Regarding those to be saved: God Has Set Forth Christ To Be A Propitiation For Our Sins Through Faith In His Blood

    We are not able to know where or when the Spirit of Truth goes and comes (John 3:8), but no matter if we did know (and we do not), the Spirit works immediately apart from any cooperation from men and wholly apart from any means, imparting new life, and that not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Truth is communicated when it is written on the heart by the Spirit of God, so there is a new creature. The new birth imparts Eternal Life and new desires (Ps 110:3; 37:31; 1John 3:6,9; 5:18; Ps 119:165; 2Cor 5:17; Eze 36:26; John 3:6; 10:28; Tit 1:2; 3:7; Rom 12:3). Where before, people being as they are as unsaved men (none righteous, none that understandeth, none that seeketh after God, all gone out of the way, unprofitable, none that doeth good, no, not one, their throat is an open sepulchre, they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips, mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their ways, the way of peace have they not known, no fear of God before their eyes, when they see Jesus there is no beauty that we should desire Him, He is despised and rejected of men - Isa 53:2-3; Rom 3:10-18), they are clearly shown from Scripture that they will not seek after God and they have no desire toward God, but only go after their own lusts. As it is written, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Salvation is of the Lord.

    As it is written, Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. The new life is created by God apart from any means, ye must be born again, and the new life and immortality is revealed by the preaching of the gospel (2Tim 1:7-10). The distinction between regeneration and conversion is shown with that.

    As it is written, God makes one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour. Sin is the mark on the vessel made unto dishonour, it is sin that separates a man from God, and even as men see this, they hold fast their sin and will not repent. As it is written, Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. With the one made unto honour, it is the precious blood of Christ that makes the difference.

    Men of themselves refuse to turn to God. Men will brag of their own works, trampling under foot the blood of Christ, claiming it is their mind, their decision, something they have done, that has turned God’s wrath away. No, it is not man’s decision, but instead Christ is the propitiation for the sins of God’s people, those chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the earth, and for them the blood averts God’s wrath. To those God’s love is freely imparted (Isa 53:6; Rom 5:8-10; Rev 5:12; 13:8; Eph 1:6-8; 2:4-5; Tit 3:3-5; 1Joh 3:1, 16; 4:9-10). The unrighteousness is gone, and God’s wrath is averted. Salvation is the gift of God.

    Consider these few thoughts about the Mercy Seat shown in the Old Testament, and how wonderfully it pictures Christ as the propitiation for the sins of the elect. The Mercy Seat is placed over the Ark of the Covenant, as a lid. On the top is two cherubim facing each other, their wings extended and coming together. In the Ark are the Tables of the Law (Ex 25:16). On the day of Atonement, blood is sprinkled on them, and so when God looks, the law is covered by the blood, taken out of the way, and so God’s wrath is turned away from the chosen people, the elect, for of the elect, it is written, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Of those to be saved, the elect, it is said, He hath chosen us, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, for the wrath is averted and God’s love is freely bestowed on His chosen, for Christ is the propitiation for their sins. Salvation is of the Lord (2Cor 5:19; Rom 1:18; 3:25; 4:15; 7:6; Gal 3:11,13; 2Cor 3:13; Eph 2:15; Eph 1:4; Tit 1:2; 1Pet 1:19-20; Rev 5:12; Eph 2:8).

    According as the Father hath chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, Christ averts the wrath from us and we see that through faith in His blood, and we are granted faith by the operation of the Holy Ghost. The Father has chosen us, the Son dies for us, and by the Spirit we are born again. God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness, but how precious does grace appear when we first believe.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
    May 31, 2005

    http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/wrathaverted.htm
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    God has chosen "us" but we don't know who "us" is.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    We don't know who "us" is but thank God He does.
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Good post Bob.
     
  5. johnp.

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    I like your stuff Bob. :cool:
    If I may add: Since we don't know who the 'us' are I can say that I am one of those 'us's if that helps! :cool: God told me I am in there cause He knows who 'us' is as OldRegular says. :cool:

    john.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    And of course this is exactly the model that Calvinists DO NOT follow in doing evangelism.

    You will never hear the Cavlinist evangelist "motivating" the sinner with the words "NOTHING you do or I say here today will determine a change in your fate nor does it show that God in fact loves YOU as one of the FEW in Matt 7. Nothing you choose will change that in the least. So know that you KNOW the truth (not that it matters) let us sit and watch and SEE how many of you God "just so happens" to call to the front today as your day of new birth".

    Rather the Calvinist pretends to be an Arminian and argues "Yes friend GOD LOVES YOU and he also loves ALL your family and friends! He IS calling YOU right now so CHOOSE to come foreward CHOOSE Christ today before it is too late" etc etc...

    As Ambassadors for Christ WE BEG YOU to be reconciled to God!!

    All such ARMINIAN appeals should have been deleted from their evangelism...

    But "inndefensibly" they are "not" - because Calvinists KNOW that Calvinism "does not work" the way it CLAIMS -- not in REAL life (it just works on debate boards)!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Yes, Romans 8:16 (KJV) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
     
  8. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Bob Ryan:

    In reply,
    http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/guestracks.htm#dispute

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
    June 10, 2005
     
  9. Sularis

    Sularis
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    sigh it is the misunderstanding of the non-Calvinist view

    How does being made aware of your sin BY GOD - realizing then that ONLY GOD can save you - then asking Him to save you - Save you?

    I dont understand - it makes no sense - in every single case - asking does not mean doing - Oh I asked to be saved Im special?

    The very concept blows my mind! - God told me I needed to be saved - and that only He could save me.

    How can asking be saving in any sense of the word?

    If I ask Buddha - Allah - this electrical deathtrap of a powerbar to save me - Im doing the same asking that I would of God - yet I am NOT saved! I even can make the powerbar save me in certain circumstances ie using it to hit a would be mugger - but I did something more then asking in the saving - NOT SO when in comes to salvation

    Call this a strawman if you will - but please explain how ASKING equals SAVING?
     
  10. johnp.

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    Hello Sularis.
    If I ask Buddha - Allah - this electrical deathtrap of a powerbar to save me - Im doing the same asking that I would of God - yet I am NOT saved! I even can make the powerbar save me in certain circumstances ie using it to hit a would be mugger - but I did something more then asking in the saving - NOT SO when in comes to salvation

    You claim you generate a righteous act. The righteous act of asking, repentance to God. Asking Budda or Allah are unrighteous acts and why you can't tell the difference is very revealing isn't it? To you I mean.
    Of course it does mean doing for asking nothing means doing nothing but asking is a doing and doing is a work. But we are told to believe.

    Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
    Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
    You cannot do what God requires you to do, He tells you that in clear language, He even tells you the question that you must ask when you understand what He is saying, "...Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" but you would not listen.
    When you can ask that question then you will have seen the glory of God in His Sovereignty!
    If you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins then you are born again and if you don't believe that then you are not born again.

    Harsh and cold us Calvinist because that is what the truth is, it's who do you think you are to talk back to God.
    Those who believe Christ died for their sins are saved. Those who do not are not. :cool:
    Harsh and cold to the perishing but to us who have been called
    we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
    And because of that this:
    RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    So being confident of this, that he who began a good work in me will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Because Jesus is the author and perfecter of my faith.

    "...I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Romans 9:14-15.

    And in that He says He is not unjust. "...Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Romans 9:19 is a valid question and the answer should be a warning to you.

    john.
     
  11. Sularis

    Sularis
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    Who am I to talk back to God? I am His child!
    I'll talk back to God if I want to! Then its my job to face the consequences! Not yours to mouth off and purposefully and willfully ignore a question. And write a smarmy in such a way that I can easily read you casting aspersions as to my salvation!

    ANYWAYS in this case Im not talking back to Him - Im talking back to a bunch of people who arent understanding the point that Im trying to make!

    ANSWER THE QUESTION

    In case you have trouble reading I will once again type it for you in bright pretty capitals

    HOW IS ASKING EQUIVALENT TO SAVING?

    Or if you need me to point you further down the line of reasoning

    WHY IS ASKING GOD TO SAVE ME A RIGHTEOUS ACT SINCE I AM NOT SAVED YET AND THUS INCAPABLE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?

    Because I dont see how we pre-salvation are suddenly miraculously capable of righteousness! If we were would we need the righteousness of Christ imparted unto us via His shed blood? Gee maybe you've built an equally foolish notion that asking God is a righteous act, and that we can do a righteous act pre-salvation.

    Of course it could miraculously have to do with the OBJECT or TARGET or ADRESSEE of our asking - that is GOD - Buddha cannot save - the powerbar cannot save (though it can spark a lot), ONLY GOD CAN SAVE - ALL THE ASKING IN THE WORLD WILL DO NOTHING - COUNTS FOR NOTHING IF IT IS NOT TO AND FOR GOD! This doesnt suddenly add value to the asking - it adds value to an already priceless God!

    Why did God save us - not because we asked - but because He told us to ask Him for what He was already freely offering.

    God paid the price for your ticket to heaven - and He's given you that ticket. Now all you have to do is walk up and use it - This doesnt mean you have saved yourself - walking up to a place without the ticket would do no good. There is no value in the walking or the asking without the ticket there to be the reason and motivator for that walking or asking!

    Im trying to make the point the asking has no value.
     
  12. johnp.

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    Hello Sularis.
    You err in your anger and shed little light and much heat for what?
    I said that when you understand what the scripture says you are left with only one question and that question must be, "...Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Romans 9:19.
    I then said that that is a valid question to ask God because God works all things out according to the purpose of His will not yours. This of course means that some are created to be sent to Hell without a chance and many without a warning. That's not fair is it? You must admit that is not fair, but by your anger I can see that you think me from some pit somewhere? What nerve have I touched when you complain that I should not tell you not to talk back to God when I never said any such thing but I said God will say that to you when you ask Him the right question. :cool: Deal with this.
    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
    Yes but that one won't be you will it Sularis because you think He is fair! HaHa! And if it is not you then you will not understand that it is God that saves not yourself.
    You keep saying that so I will keep saying, it is God that saves not yourself At what point is salvation acheived by you? Is it because Jesus died or because you accept. Then you save yourself. What then if you think of yourself as co-redeemer is that better? :cool:

    I did answer I said that repentance is an act beyond man.

    Where does Jesus tell us to ask Him and what does He ask us to ask Him? Concerning salvation I mean?

    john.
     
  13. Sularis

    Sularis
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    Hrm - I am annoyed - but your answer that it is God who saves should settle your silly argument that asking equates to saving - IT DOESNT because it is God who saves! We make no claim that asking in anyway saves us! You have built a strawman as well stuffed as any Arminian ever made of Calvinism - or BobRyan ;)

    Pit somewhere? No I was thinking somewhere a little more open like perhaps.... a lake of some kind?

    Come let us reason together - while our minds may be limited and frail compared to God's it is no excuse to say oh well - He's God I cant understand Him - then sit back and suck your thumb.

    If I ask the same favour of ten different people and or things - and only one of them accomplishes it. Did I do the favour? or did the person who was able to do the favour do the favour?

    It is GOD who saves

    Oh and the further question for the purpose of elucidation you did not deign to answer

    WHY IS ASKING GOD TO SAVE ME A RIGHTEOUS ACT SINCE I AM NOT SAVED YET AND THUS INCAPABLE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?
     
  14. johnp.

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    Hello Sularis.

    Where have I given reason for you to believe I believe our minds are frail and so shut it to God? Just an off hand slur?
    I did not say you are able to produce a righteous act.

    I said that repentance is a righteous act.

    You admit that you are unrighteous and incapable, and so does scripture.

    You request, your asking, would be a righteous act if you were able but you are not able.

    This is the third time I've answered you so please stop saying I have not. If the answer I give is not to your liking then it's not to your liking rephrase your question.

    WHY IS ASKING GOD TO SAVE ME A RIGHTEOUS ACT
    Because it is repentance.
    SINCE I AM NOT SAVED YET AND THUS INCAPABLE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS?
    You are not able to repent it is a righteous act. Do you understand my point?

    It is God that saves not yourself At what point is salvation acheived by you? Is it because Jesus died or because you accepted His sacrifice. What then if you think of yourself as co-redeemer is that better? Would you be saved by Jesus or would you be saved by your asking. (Asking what?)

    Where does Jesus tell us to ask Him and what does He ask us to ask Him? Concerning salvation I mean?

    john.
     
  15. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Faith is fruit of the Spirit.

    Galatians 5:22 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    There is no faith, unless a man is first born again, of the Spirit of God. There is no fruit of the Spirit apart from the Spirit. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Salvation is of the Lord.

    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     

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