Good Works Essential

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by adisciplinedlearner, Jul 23, 2010.

  1. adisciplinedlearner

    adisciplinedlearner
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    John 5
    [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Good works are essential to final salvation.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    You are a master of diversion and escape. John 5:24 has already denied that true believers "shall come into condemnation [judgement] and yet the very reason for your quotation of John 6:28-29 is to contradict precisely what Jesus denied previously. He has already demonstrated that the decision between being resurrected to life versus eternal death has been a completed action at the point of faith. He uses the perfect tense "passed" from death unto life which demands the "present" tense "beleiveth" is not a CONDITION but a declaration that stems from this COMPLETED action that stands completed up to the present.

    Both the Present tense "HATH" ever lasting life and the perfect tense "pased" from death unto life and the future tense "shall not come into judgement' expose your eisgetical interpretation of John 6:24-29 for exactly what it is - heresy.
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    Is it your position that men are saved by works or do good works because of their salvation?
     
  4. adisciplinedlearner

    adisciplinedlearner
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    It is my position that faith and good works are always inseparable. Faith without good works is dead. We believe and do good works by God's grace, so no human merit is involved in either case.
     
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    The problem with your position is not that "faith" and good works are insepable but they are not the same. In addition, the primary problem with your position is that neither faith or good works are what justifies a sinner as those in Matthew 7:21-23 had both faith ("Lord, Lord,) and good works ("have we not done many wonderful works") which is a MIXTURE like "sand" and such a MIXTURE cannot justify anyone before God.

    Faith is worthless in regard to justification before God without the proper OBJECT. Justification is obtained through faith IN the object, not in faith or what is produced by faith, and your position replaces Christ with faith and the actions produced by faith. Demons have faith but they cannot be justified before God NOT merely because their faith lacks works but because their faith has no OBJECT that will validate their works as righteous before God. It is ONLY in the already justified man that "God worketh both to will and to do of His good pleasure" and that is due to the already acceptance of the sinner based upon the object of faith. Where there is no proper object of faith there is consequential no basis to accept works as "good" in God's sight much less for God to work in such a person to both will and to do His good pleasure.
     
  6. adisciplinedlearner

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    I agree that faith and good works do not serve as the basis or ground of our justification. We are justified on the basis or ground of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Faith serves as an instrumental cause of our justification, but faith is not meritorious. Good works serve as an instrumental cause of our justification, but good works are not meritorious. Faith is exercised and good works are done by God's grace.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    So, is it your positions there are two classes of people in heaven? Those who have faith and have done nothing and lived wantonly not redeeming the days because they are evil. And a group of people who've done Good and have no faith? How else do you understand this verse?
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Hmmm. Sounds familiar. Next they'll try to prove your a jesuit spy.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    What????


    Has he ever said it was anything other than faith in Christ and His blood?
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Man you guys would make a pinwheel difficult. All this debate on mechanics of salvation is useless.

    1. A Christian has faith in Christ and His blood

    Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


    2. A Christian will live for God

    1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;


    All the other parsing is ridiculous
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    The provision of Christ IS our justification and the only role that faith plays is embracing, resting and accepting it to be entirely sufficient as such, complete propitiation as such WITHOUT the addition of anything produced by faith in our own lives.

    This is clearly seen in Romans 4:16-22 where Paul defines the nature of justifying faith. God waits until Abraham and Sariah cannot possibly participate in obtaining the promise because all their assistant faculties are "dead" but are forced simply to can DO NOTHING to participate with God in obtaining the promise of God. It is not anything performed BY FAITH that obtains the promise but simply being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    Thus the role of faith was without action on the part of Abraham but simply RESTING in God and His power to accomplish HIs promise.

    Howevever, your definition of justification by faith INCLUDES PARTICIPATION THROUGH WORKS IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED.
     
    #11 Dr. Walter, Jul 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2010
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    Actually this is true.
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    Yes, we don't want to confuse anyone with those pesky essential details and distinctions found in scripture.
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    Distinctions that are often made in the current context and not applicable to the context of the passage of when it was writen. Yes its true.

    Such as a particular Dr. Suggesting that in Romans Paul wasn't making a comparison between mosaic law and faith but was rather arguing doing anything in any way in any context and faith.
     
  15. RAdam

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    This is a simple text, and would to God people would keep it simple. Jesus describes two groups of people: they that have done good, they that have done evil. He did not say anything about how much good the first group had done or whether they did good every day of their life. He didn't say why they did good, He didn't say when they started doing good. All He did was describe them as "they that have done good." Likewise He tells us next to nothing about the second group aside from describing them as "they that have done evil." To read into this that good works are essential for salvation is to read something into the text that isn't there.
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    I am having a hard time following your logic because of the way you express yourself above.

    The current context in Romans 3:19-5:2 denies completely that Paul had only in view Judaic law or the idea that one must become a Jew to be justified. It certainly includes it, and all other Law keeping concepts as Romans 3:27 reduces justification down to two basic Laws:

    1. The law of works
    2. The law of faith

    In nearly every description of "the law of works" the emphasis is never upon becoming a "Jew" but upon "deeds" and "works" in contrast to "grace" and "faith".

    In nearly every contast given in this context, faith or believing is NEVER once contrasting to being a "Jew" but in contrast to "works" or "deeds."

    For example, in Romans 4:1-5, the gentile born Abraham existed previous to any Judaic law. However, verse 2 demonstrate Abraham did have "works" he could boast in but just not before God and they are the "works" in question in regard to verse 4 and the general law that "works" operate under. However, being a "jew" versus "Gentile" could have nothing to do with these works of Abraham and has nothing to do with the general law of works in Romans 4:4:

    Rom. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

    Try replacing the word "worketh" with "Jew" and see if it makes any sense in regard to a fundemental law that characterizes all works? What does being a "Jew" have to do with "debt"?

    However, the GENERAL LAW of works (Rom. 3:27) in regard to justification is spelled out in Rom. 2:6 "according to his deeds" has eveything to do with this principle of works in Romans 4:4.

    The man who is attempting to justify himself before God by his "deeds" is trying to place God in his "debt" as a worker would place his employer in his debt by putting in so many hours. He is requiring "pay" for his work.

    Not only is this contrast between the "law of works" and "the law of faith" the only two alternatives given by Paul for justification, but he eliminates "the law of works" as a valid law to be justified before God.

    This same TWO contrasting ways have been present since the Garden with "the way of Cain" versus "the way of the Lord" or "the broad way" versus the "narrow way" or the house built upon "sand" verus the house built upon "the rock" or salvation "by grace" versus "by works."

    The "law of works" certainly includes the idea of becoming a Jew in order to be justified before God but that whole concept is based upon the idea that the Jew has the law of God and obedience by the Jew separates him from the Gentile and so the root or foundational problem is justification by "deeds".
     
    #16 Dr. Walter, Jul 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2010
  17. adisciplinedlearner

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    Jesus' words make it clear that good works (good doings) are essential to salvation.
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    Yes, but they are not essential to justification! The term "salvation" is a very broad term that includes not merely election to glorification but everything in between. Works are essential to at least two aspects of salvation - progressive sanctification and judgement for rewards.

    The two basic problems for all who preach "another gospel" are (1) They fail to distinguish between things that differ; (2) They reverse Biblical causes with Biblical consequences.
     
  19. RAdam

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    Did He say, in that verse, that they would be raised unto "the resurrection of life" because of their good works?
     
  20. Dr. Walter

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    They are raised unto "the resurretion of life" not to judgement because Jesus just DEMANDED that believers "shall not come into judgement" - v. 24

    So the text means nothing in regard to justification. They are righteous because they are POSITIONALLY righteous in Christ; they are REGENERATIVELY righteous by new birth and whatever they do under the direction of the Holy Spirit is regarded as righteous.

    In direct contrast the "wicked" are unrighteous in their position before God, unrighteous in regard to their unregenerate nature as a whole and CANNOT DO ONE SINGLE SOLITARY GOOD WORK of righteousness before God. Hence, the term "righteous" in the context of God's evaluation of man cannot be used of any lost person, their position, their nature or their actions BEFORE GOD.
     

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