Greg Gilbert - Against Music

Yeah, I remember one Easter service where a couple sang John Denver's "Leaving On A Jet Plane" as a worship song. I didn't know whether to laugh or be outraged.
"I'm leeeavin' on a jet plane
Don't know when I'll be back again.
Oh, babe, I hate to goooo..."

love,

Sopranette

 

Those are two of the songs my kids love to copy Momma, Ann. "Count Your Blessings," and "Sweet By And By." I gotta admit they are two of my favorites as well. I'm not sure why you would exclude them as not being worshipful, since the promise of Heaven and reminders to be thankful for our blessings here on earth are in Scriptures.

love,

Sopranette

 

Actually syncopation started in the middle ages with Ars nova, and has been embraced by many pagans, not just voodoo as their method of wroship.

Please name for me a hymn that uses syncopation.

 

Yes, that is a deacons job, but our church constitution also states very plainly that they are to promote the unity and spirit of our church.

At one time it was, but that is not a valid argument here. You should not use any melodies that chase after worldly secular music, sure the piano or organ wasn't around back then, but the guitar was. Oh yes, nobody really knows how far back the fretted instrument goes, because it has been traced back to many centuries B. C.

I guess a traditionalist could have that problem, but they would then be an extremist. Something I am not, I think it's well documented and proven that CCM will split churches just to please the few that fight so hard to have it.

Absolutely, we have Gods word for a reason, it's our guide to life, we are to follow it. There is a problem here in Missouri with certain groups splitting from the Missouri Baptist Convention because they don't agree and do not ascribe to SBC 2000, and for that reason, many of them are taking the word of God out of context completely.

No, the projector is no more worldly than computers or anything like that, but it is completely un-necessary. I still don't know what is wrong with picking up the hymnal and singing from it.

I'm sorry if that offended you, it was not intended to be offensive, I believe it is very easy to know the heart of someone who is "worshiping" God. You can tell by their actions in everyday life exactly where their heart is. Now it's true we ALL sin, some of us more than others, but I believe you can also tell those who are repentant of their sin as well.

Okay, I'll give you an example. here recently I heard an abomination of Amazing Grace. It was going very good until a part in the chorus where un-necessary words were added. That sickens me, to think Amazing Grace is not good enough to stand on it's own? I can see that rooting back to modern secular music, I can see it plain as day, I'm not sure why anyone else can't see that, it's pretty obvious.

It was meant to illustrate the lifestyle that comes along with CCM. A lifestyle that parrots secular music lifestyles, with sexual immoralities, and people who dress immodestly, temptation around every turn, I see the commercials advertising CCM and they sicken me. With my experience in Music, I can see the secular roots bleeding into what they're selling. That is completely inappropriate for use in worship. Now, granted, what we see advertised on T.V. is not what we have in our churches (I hope) but I can't tell much difference in it.

It most certainly does address CCM. Because a lot of us are offended by it.

How can it be turned around on the traditionalists? By saying that traditional hymns are offensive? Good luck making an argument for that.

All I'm trying to say is I am standing up for what I feel in my heart is right. God speaks to my heart, and with Him, I am strong. I will not be persuaded, I will not be changed until God feels the need to change my heart. I don't care if I'm the only person on earth with this view (I'm not) only God will change my mind, and until he does, I will remain as stubborn as I have been on this.

Understand I don't hate those who enjoy CCM. I love you all, but you need to understand, no argument you can bring will sway me, I am who I am, God uses that, I'm used to going against the grain, and God teaches us in His word that as Christians, the mere profession of our faith makes us rebellious against the world, and that is exactly the way I see my argument here, I will rebel against the world all the days of my life. Nobody ever said following Christ was easy, We may have to agree to disagree on this, and go on. I hold my views very close to my heart, I have other views that I can imagine you being completely on board with, such as our need to evangelize the lost (especially the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon's) and there are ways to do that, ways that until recently I didn't even think about.

Let's face it, as I have said earlier, it would appear that we are at an impasse.

Blessings,
Todd

 

It is easy to see which side causes splits...

The side that takes stands that are not found in the Bible.

Yes, our church sings this every week.. I have tried to change the song.. but they don't want it changed... the tears fly each week when it is sung.

If you consider that an abomination, then something is seriously wrong with your theology.

And you will probably not like Heaven.. since Heaven is going to be a glorious place.. not a quiet, solemn, no emotional type place...

But by the time you get there, you will learn that you have let Satan steal a gift from you..

IF you can play your guitar as well as you pridefully claim, you should be using it in everyway to glorify God.

 

Oh, I am offended too.

You traditionalists, take stands that have no scripture to back you up, you offend everyone that does not like hymns, and then say that WE shouldn't offend you....

Take your own medicine, and quit playing the pharisee by implying that you are better because you don't use CCM.

The church splits that you speak of is happening because Christians are standing up to traditional, phariseeical, religious people.

Standing up for God may cause splits.

(edited because I reread what I wrote, and it didn't sound nice )

 

Tiny, I'd have to agree. So far, I haven't seen one scripture to support that CCM, in and of itself, is sinful. It's opinion and personal taste driven more than it is anything else.

 

t93, welcome to the BB music argument... you fit in right nicely.

 

I don't think denigrating each other is gonna bring anyone into the body of Christ.

But then, I don't think either side in this dog fight has the right to judge others.

Neither do I think churches that do not accept BFM2000 are rejecting scripture or guilty of dividing Christ any more than those that accept it. (Even in Missouri.)

Now, what I HAVE found edifying is talking this over with a young music minister (he prefers worship minister, I don't, and will explain why in a minute.)

Here is basically what he told me, in a nutshell, in my words, and therefore liable to misunderstanding him, but best I can do:

The problem is so many churches are trying to go two directions at once. Before you pick the music style, or the lyrics, or any other part of the service including sermon style, you must define your mission.

Some see that mission as the forthtelling of the gospel to the lost and educating the believer. Those folks are more likely to prefer the hymns (old OR new). They are more likely to prefer either old style evangelistic preaching or expository preaching. They likely hold that there should be a marked difference between the Christians and the non believers, and between the church and the world. They are not concerned with fitting in with popular culture, nor with making those comfortable in modern culture feel comfortable the instant they enter the church. (So if you arrive late and don't know where you should be in the hymnal, they figure you need that discomfort to discipline you into being on time.) These folks view WORSHIP as something done privately, just between the believer and the Lord. As he put it, they often find contemporary worship services as embarrassing as modern public displays of affection between sweethearts.

On the other hand, some see worship as the purpose of the service. They don't come to church to forthtell the gospel or to disciple believers. They come to experience corporately a deeply intimate connection with the Lord. They are likely to prefer music (new or old) that focuses either on praising God or on expressing their own feelings toward God. As he put it, they come to engage their emotions rather than their minds, and simpler music forms and simpler lyrics lend themselves well to that. They are more comfortable with topical preaching that focuses on their feelings and needs. They feel the church can safely reflect modern culture, and fear giving the impression people must choose modern culture or the church. They view STUDY and SOULWINNING as things done privately and individually, and are often embarrassed by what they perceive as the coldness of traditional churches.

It just might be that there is room in the body of Christ for both of those callings.

It just might be that each soul must go before the Lord and settle this for his or herself, and act accordingly without judging those that think differently.

That just might allow for more cooperation and less church divisions. And then again, God just might be using this to grow the church by those very divisions. (So a church splits. Maybe that town NEEDS another Baptist church to win the lost!)

About the only "dumb" thing he said, in my clearly not very humble opinion (did I mention I used to be his teacher at church many many many years ago and am so proud of him!) was that from the "stage", he loves using powerpoint because people are looking up at the Lord when they sing. Uh, no dear, they are looking up at the screen.

So I will continue to call him a music minister, since I fall into that first group. And I reminded him the elevated area in the front of the church is not a stage for performances. And he (smart young man--someone taught him well LOL) replied, yes ma'am.

 

With this I agree.. although, I see Sunday morning at 11 more of your second choice, (except for topical sermons :wavey: ) Our Sunday evenings, are much more intellectually involved.

Then we have a deep, deep Bible study on Wednesday evenings.
Even to the point of debating Calvinism and Arminianism...
And different theologies.

So even in our church, we have a balance between intellectual services, and emotional services....

We have to realize that not everyone is intellectually designed. Some think out of the right side of their brain, which is more creative and emotional.

So I do think there is room for both types of services...


What bothers me is when people judge people and imply that they not as holy as their side. That does not have to happen.

If a person comes to a church they should accept the style of that church.... not cause division.. .(AND IT CUTS BOTH WAYS)

It would be just as wrong for a traditionalist to come to our church and stir up trouble by saying that we are sinning by using some CCM, as it would a CMMist... (see I can coin phrases too:laugh: )to join a traditional church and try tell them they are sinning by using hymns.

A simple answer would to be go where God leads you.

 

Don't have a hymnal in front of me, but one example immediate: "I will Sing the Wondrous Story" (tune WONDROUS STORY). Exactly what are the men doing on the chorus? Being pagan, in your estimation.

One of the silliest arguments I've seen lately. What, is Amazing Grace now elevated with Scripture? Good gracious. Not to mention...that song's arrangement has exposed many more people to "the original." It would seem you would like that.

Never elevate a song to Scriptural status...unless it is Scripture itself.

The above quote responded to my statement:

You dodged my whole point, because you cannot answer it without impugning your position.

Nothing's wrong with it. But you added "projector" to the list of "everything wrong with them churches." If it ain't a problem (ethically/spiritually) then why list it? It sounds like we're just making a list of "stuff I don't like." That's called preference.

I guess we are. Sad thing is, though...there are many of us that embrace old, ancient, and modern expressions of worship...that are perfectly happy to see others "stick with one" style. I'm one of them. You want to say, "I don't like it?" Go ahead...that's great with me. But as soon as you say, "God's against it," we have a problem, because Scripture does not bear that out. It does bear out submitting to one another in love...which repeats my thought: I'm fine with your particular of worship style, and I celebrate it.

 

Well, one thing's for sure. Human emotions are inextricable from music. That much is evident from this thread, no matter which style you personally adhere to.

love,

Sopranette

 

You are right God designed music to relate to our emotions.. to make music intellectual, is to thwart God's design.

 

Sorry...I just had to point out that you used the word "thwart."

What a silly word. Who came up with that word? It sounds like it means something other than what it means.

 

I had a thwart once. A little compound w cleared it right up.

 

Did you use Compound thW?

 

Yeth.


:laugh: