Groups

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Frogman, Aug 10, 2005.

?

Which group do you identify with?

  1. Calvinist

    95.2%
  2. Arminian

    4.8%
  3. Free-will

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Dear Brothers and Sisters,
    I am not too wise, but I have noticed there are at least three groups of believers in Christianity today regarding soteriology. These views, as I see them, are Totally Depraved, no regeneration, no salvation, Totally Depraved (sometimes said as Totally Disabled), regenerated=enabled to make a decision=born again, not born again (depending on the decision made from a regenerated mind and heart). and then there is what I have called for this thread, Non-Totally Depraved, possessing an inclination to sin, but able by free will choice to choose to believe in the atonement, which choice renders being born again.

    The first, we know is Calvinism, the second, unless I am wrong is the general teaching of Arminianism, the third is the most difficult, because depending on the level of understanding, the one who supports this opinion generally comes off completely as sounding as if the individual really had no need of being saved, but because Christ did this, they will choose to accept his work.

    The third is what I call free-willism.

    This poll is an effort to identify the groups that are present on the C/A forum.

    There is one question, with only one answer. Answer in regards to your agreement with the above definitions.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    humm

    well i see it like this..

    1) Free Will with Partial Depravity or “Arminianism”

    2) Total depravity or “Calvinism

    3) Mixing of the 2...”Does not workism”

    but..i have but wrong before.


    In Christ...James

    :cool:
     
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    I need to add this to my post above.

    I can understanding people wanting to try to mix the 2 together into one understnading doctrine. I have tried this before. I could never make it work for to me the 2 do not mix.

    I in no way want to say you can not try.


    In Christ..James
     
  4. billwald

    billwald
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    Calvinist, but there is no test for election - the state of being elect.
     
  5. SeekingTruth

    SeekingTruth
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    I hesitate to call myself Calvinist, because there are somethings in his theology that I do not accept. However, given the choices, I was compelled to check Calvinist.
     
  6. Frogman

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    Dear Brother Bill and Seeking Truth,

    First, I apologize, I am not trying to provide a test for being elect, second I apologize for the inconvenience to some who do not fully agree with the theology of Calvin, I too disagree with much of his body of faith he taught, however as this board is recognized C/A, I limited the choice to Calvinist rather than any other sub-group within that teaching of the Doctrines of Grace.

    I think, note as much as is in me, that I said I think, in the main, those upholding the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace can fundamentally agree with the five points of Calvinism.

    Unless I am mistaken, the only differences truly are the terms used, such as limited atonement becomes particular redemption, perseverance becomes preservation.

    At least, this is my understanding. If someone knows better than I, do not hesitate to correct me.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  7. Jarthur001

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    One hardly sees these listed, but this is the 5 points of Jacobus Arminius

    It should be noted that even these points have a dif meaning to each reader

    1) Free Will with Partial Depravity
    2) Resistible Grace
    3) Fall from Grace
    4) Conditional Election
    5) Universal Atonement


    at then John Calvin...

    1) Total depravity (Original Sin)
    2) Unconditional election (God's Election)
    3) Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
    4) Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
    5) Perseverance of the Saints
     
  8. StefanM

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    That's not a logical arrangement.

    Regeneration essentially refers to being "born again." One cannot be regenerated in order to choose whether or not to be regenerated. I'd say the Arminian position as I've seen it has been that humanity is depraved but has enabling grace from God to choose or to reject Him. If they choose God, they will be born again (or regenerated). If one says that an individual has the natural ability to choose beyond the enabling grace of God, one would be essentially Pelagian, IMO.

    I voted Arminian as defined by my post here.
     
  9. WallyGator

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    Ditto, Seeking Truth
     
  10. Jarthur001

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    I agree with your point, but not with your side. lol

    In the "books", most draw the lines this way. When in the fall of man what does dead mean? The words used most of the time are, WELL, DEAD, or SICK

    Dead...without any life spiritually and cannot come to God on His own. So election must happen

    Sick...Is dead to the things of God but can learn about God and choose to be saved. This is also called semi-Pelagian

    Well...Adams fall was only himself. Each new man is a new adam and can determine his own moral state by actions. This view is also called Pelagians
     
  11. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    Frogman,

    Hey....great thread!

    You say you are not too wise....I would have to disagree and note that many of your posts are very well put together! Serious on that.

    If there is something....anything at all that is capable of thwarting God's plan, He is no longer sovereign.

    By that very definition men are not free.

    In Him we move and have our being.

    You say it best when you say it like you usually say it; "Sovereign grace!"

    Calvinist.

    God bless you! Regards, KJB [​IMG]
     
  12. SeekingTruth

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    Bro. Dallas & WallyGator

    Yes I absolutely agree with the 5 points of Calvinism. I did not mean to sound contentious, so if I did I apologize.

    I think a better term for my beliefs would be "Predestinarian".
     
  13. Frogman

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    Dear Brethren,
    Here is a definition of Arminianism from the introduction of a message by Brother Oscar B. Mink. This quote is copied, and states that Brother Mink is retired, however, if I am not mistaken, he went to the Lord last year:

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]

    BTW, SeekingTruth, I didn't perceive you as being contentious, I thought you were merely pointing out my leaving out the 'group' (of which I agree) who disagree with much of Calvin's theology, but are Sovereign Grace.
     
  14. King James Bond

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    The Arminian doctrine is based on "human pride". It is called "self righteousness".

    It is people that see in them all the good needed to search for and find God. Once they find Him it is their will-power and effort that will keep them for eternity.

    Better eyes to see with, better hearts to choose with, better and clearer minds with just the right wisdom.

    It is nothing less than delusional.

    Who is it that makes mens minds, eyes, hearts, ears and so on?

    It is sinful corrupt people thinking that God is incapable to save sinful corrupt people without the help of sinful corrupt people.

    Some people have never really been convicted of sin.

    We don't go around preaching about ourselves; we preach Christ Jesus, the Lord.

    Rom 10:20 I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” from Isaiah 65:1

    1 Cor 4: 7 What makes you better than anyone else? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why boast as though you have accomplished something on your own?

    2 Cor 3:5 It is not that we think we can do anything of lasting value by ourselves. Our only power and success come from God.

    James 1:17-18 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth , so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

    Phil 1:6 And I am sure that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on that day when Christ Jesus comes back again.

    "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD , who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD .

    Regards, KJB [​IMG] God bless!
     
  15. StefanM

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    I agree. Humanity is not capable of thwarting God's plan. I merely believe that God's plan is to incorporate human choice into the equation.
     
  16. TexasSky

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    I believe that "choice" is the condition God sat.
     
  17. SeekingTruth

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    TexSky

    The only choice is God's. He chooses whom He will show mercy.
     
  18. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I agree. Humanity is not capable of thwarting God's plan. I merely believe that God's plan is to incorporate human choice into the equation. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear StefanM,
    Can you elaborate on your meaning by the above statement? it appears to my poor mind to be opposed to itself.

    How can you believe humanity is not capable of thwarting God's plan, but yet believe that by human choice, some reject God's accomplished reconciliation in Christ?

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  19. Frogman

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    And Christ chose to accept the Will of the Father and fulfill the Covenant of Works that Adam could not; thereby becoming the second Adam and thereby the federal head in which all the redeemed fulfill the Covenant of Works.

    But, having fulfilled this Covenant of Works, only in His sinless flesh (Matthew 5:17) and then notice what he said in vs. 20.

    How can/does our righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees? Is this accomplished through our sinful flesh, to the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law?

    Then further, note what Paul says regarding our fulfilling of the law:

    Thus, Christ has fulfilled the Law, and in Him, our Faith establishes the Law, that is that while it is fulfilled in him, our fulfilling the righteousness of the law is established only through our faith, faith in what? Our abilitites? No, but the choice of Christ to accept the will of the Father (See John 6).

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Bro. Dallas;
    Calvinist readily claim regeneration before anything else. What makes me wonder is just where does scripture actually say that regeneration comes first?
    I've read where men have asked in the Bible how to be saved and in none of theese accounts did any one tell them they must be regenerated first. Please tell me just where Calvinism came accross such an idea.
    Are all of us non Calvinist totally depraved?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All
     

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