Gun Ownership

I'm just curious what Christian would feel comfortable lying to someone or the government?

Are we not biblical Christians? The Bible clearly states lying is sinful. The Bible also states to submit to those in authority over you. How is lying (if this were to happen) a thing we can commend from a biblical worldview?

 

This is not sumething that a mature Christian would do. Immature Christian do it all the time, though. I know numerous Christians who cheat on their taxes, and then brag about it. Sad.

 

A very nice post, HankD. *Applauds*

 

PIJ,

I'm NOT trying to compare the US today to the Poland or Germany of 1942, but I would have gladly lied to a member of the gestapo if they asked me if I knew where any jews were in hiding if I knew. I'm just illustrating where I would be absolutely comfortable lying about something. (Of course I am blessed with the ability to use hindsight rather than having to be in the middle of it.)

It's about degrees, I suppose. Would it be better for me as a WW2 era supporter of some hidden jews to lie or to simply refuse to answer the question? If I refused to answer the question, I would eventually have just been shot for refusing to cooperate or even tortured (in which case they'd probably get the information out of me), doing no good to them that I was helping in the first place.

IF the OP were true and the gov't were trying to collect this information/tax and I thought the gov't was just pushing socialism on me I would have a very hard time answering the quesiton truthfully or even just refusing to answer the question. There are a LOT of 'ifs' to this question, none of which renders the entire issue black and white for me.

Now... if it came down to lying about my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, there's absolutely NO WAY I would do that. THAT is a stand worth dying for, without doubt.

 

First, non-disclosure of information is NOT lying but a right provided to me against self-incrimination and/or government meddling.

Second, I am submitting to those in authority over me (those framers of The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and The Bill of Rights) when I stand upon those rights which were given to us as checks and balances against those in the government who overstep the bounds of their authority.

It is also my right to challenge their authority via due process.

This is exactly the purpose of these documents: to keep those in authority from exercising a forbidden dominion over us and block them from meddling in our personal affairs where they have no right.

It is my choice to obey these documents and exercise my rights against self incrimination, illegal search and seisure, the right of redress of grievance, and protection against those leaders who overstep their bounds, etc., the exercise of which rights my conscience is perfectly clear as both a citizen and a Christian.

Those who want to to belly-up to tyranny are also free to do so.

HankD

 

I have a feeling you would oppose your state government just as you do the federal government. Some people just don't like government.

 

It's a feeling, it will pass.

 

Yep, this is an urban myth. Guess this is more from the frantic wild-eyed radical right.

See:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/taxreturns.asp

 

Rude, rude, rude.

 

It is too far a stretch to compare gun rights to human rights imho.

Well I agree there is a great deal of ambiguity in a scenario envisioned in the fictional scenario of the OP. Yet the major issue is that the OP asked if Christians would lie.

Yet Jesus instituted the leaders over you....according to several places in the NT. Wouldn't lying to them be the same as lying to Jesus?

 

Well the OP asked about the validity of Christians lying to gov't. It's in the OP. I don't believe there is an option for a biblical Christian then.

The NT doesn't make that distinction. The founders of Rome had vastly different views than the eventual rulers contemporary of Christ and the early Church leaders. Yet the rule was maintained, submit to the those current leaders over you.

This is an unfair statement. We don't live in a tyrannical republic. Believe it or not there are far worse expressions of government out there. IMHO, America is still the best expression of government in the world.

Honestly, I don't have any issue with this. Of course I don't own any guns. If this fictional scenario of OP were to happen all the government is doing is asking for registering not restricting. We let the government register us at many levels. If you have a Social Security card you've submitted to registering at some point. If you've given notice for selective service you've submitted to registering at some point. No one in the federal government is going to restrict your guns.

 

preach, please re-read my statement. I wouldn't lie. I just wouldn't disclose the information which is a outside of the scope of the government to ask as it was presented in this fictional scenario of the O/P.

Even Jesus remained silent and practised non-disclosure of information when He stood before Pilate.

And, yes there may well be a consequence of non-disclosure as Pilate said to Jesus.

In addition, it was the government which inspired my keen interest in firearms as I am a veteran.

We may not live in a totally tyranical environment but even within my own lifetime conditions have moved in that direction.

And I will exercise my rights of redress of grievance, right of association and non-disclosure in opposition to this growing tyrany of the leftists and godless marxists who have found their way into seats of leadership of the government of my beloved country.

Which rights BTW the founding fathers declared as "unalienable" and provided by our Creator. I agree wholeheartedly and have offered my service to my country to preserve those rights. I volunteered, I was not drafted.

But since Roe v. Wade, (and now "death with dignity" - a.k.a legal self-murder or legalized suicide in two States) this government by not protecting them and/or denying the right to life to the unborn and now the elderly have denied them all the other rights guaranteed by the founding fathers and the Scriptures as well.

So in answer to the O/P: It is not I (who have protected the rights and lives of my fellow Americans either in the military or at the ballot box) who has disobeyed the Scripture by exercising my God given rights.

HankD

 

Sins of omission seem to be as indicting as sins of commission.

He wasn't completely silent before Pilate. You might want to check John 19.

That's cool, I don't care for guns.

Terrific, but this has nothing to do with the OP.

Hey, I'm as opposed to abortion and euthanasia as anyone around but we have to stop the rhetoric here. The government isn't lining up people for either practice or forcing them into it. Likewise this issue, if it actually happens, is about registration and not revocation.

We all have submitted to some form of governmental registration. Yet I don't see the government revoking any of these things.

So if the government, which God has placed over you, asks you to provide info on anything else you'll provide but on this issue you would openly defy them? Even though it isn't a significant biblical issue.

Seems pretty silly. I'm just saying.

 

It was established very quickly that it was an urban myth, CTB. Good to see that you're reading all the posts before you jump in... *wink*

 

So you'd lie for human rights then? Careful now... it's a trick question!

I'm not sure how that relates to my saying I'd never denounce Jesus, maybe I read it wrong.

 

You're crediting me with things I didn't say, please research the thread and credit the correct person so they can respond to your post. Thanks.

 

As I stated before Jesus practised non-disclosure. Even though He was not totally silent He supplied Pilate only the information He felt he needed to know. The fact is that He remained silent through most of the interrogation. So what happened when He did speak? Did He repent?

I do the same with my government. They will receive the information that The founding documents legally allow.

Since my government allows non-disclosure, I am scripturally free to exercise that right because by doing so, I am yielding to the authority of the founding fathers.

I will continue to repeat this everytime I am presumptively accused (howbeit obliquely or by innuendo) of commiting the sin of disobedience to my government.

Also, in the fictional scenario presented in the O/P and posts following, a demand of a written list of the firearms which I own constitutes an a priori case of an illegal search without probable cause as well as the absence of the resultant search warrant with a statement of cause.

That's great preach as it is your right, but that does not negate the rights of others such as non-disclosure of potentially self incriminating information and illegal search and most important the following:

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The right of "redress of grievances" allows me to challenge the requirement of a list of my firearms as an "infringement" upon the right to keep and to bear arms above as well as an a priori case of illegal search and non-disclosure of potentially incriminating information without probable cause plainly stated in a search warrant.

Yes it does as the O/P makes a presumptive accusation and presupposition that that Christians can make one of two responses (to lie or not to lie) totally ignoring the right non-disclosure (as well as those against privacy meddling, illegal search, etc.) provided by the founding fathers.

The testimonial of my military service is rock solid evidence that "I put my money where my mouth is" in the protection of those rights provided therein in spite of the blanket accusation of disobedience with the limitations of the answers of "to lie or not to lie". There is a third choice, the exercise of my right to remain silent.

Here is a copy of the O/P:

I don't see the word "registration" any where in the O/P.
In addition, give the responses any label you wish, I for one will not stop the "rhetoric" as I also have the right of Freedom of Speech.

No I would not "openly defy them". I might exercise my right to remain silent or make a petition of grievance against governmental meddling and the breaking of my right to privacy.

Not so brother preach. The exercise of those rights provided by our founding fathers are far from silly. So much so that, in my case, I offered my life in protection of those rights.

The wisdom of those founding fathers is evident in their documents.
The wisdom to know the stealth and craftiness of governmental tyrany and provide rights which would, if exercised, protect us from the evil thereof.

So you see why so many have tried to destroy or subvert these rights or at very least to lull the citizenry into complacency.

To me it a duty to exercise those rights and stop evil or ignorant men in their tracks.

Repeat: This is the purpose of these "unalienable" rights provided by our Creator and documented by the fathers of our nation.

To protect the people from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

HankD

 

If a government starts a round up of guns/ammo, that's when we are going to need the guns and ammo the most.

 

Are you saying you kill police officers over this?

 

How would providing a list infringe upon your right to keep and bear arms?

Not that I am saying the government ought to ask for such information(I don't think it should), but if it did how would it be an infringement?