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Featured Harambe the Gorilla: A Serious Theological Lesson

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Jun 5, 2016.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Several people on here right now have studied themselves into the position.
     
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  2. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

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    I have, several times. In fact, it's the only reason I joined this thread. I'll do so here again. The OP said:

    The OP clearly said that we state that God cannot save people. I have also clearly stated that we do not state this. This is the very definition of a straw man - making up an argument and then attacking that argument instead of attacking the actual argument.

    Of course I haven't. No scripture is needed to see that the OP is a straw man, which is the only thing I've done this entire thread - get him and others to see that the argument he is positing isn't even an argument. It's an argument against a make believe belief that no one actually believes.

    My objection has been ignored (or in the case of TC, "dismissed because of spiritual maturity") by everyone so far. Again, my objection is the use of strawmen arguments that portray our belief as something in which we don't actually believe.

    Let's look at my argument in simple terms. the OP said we believe "a". We do not believe "a". Yet the OP attacked "a". This is a straw man. Period. There's no way around it. It is the textbook definition of a straw man.
     
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  3. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Some readers may ask: ‘What’s the big deal? Why all the fuss about doctrine?’

    Christ felt it important: If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself (John 7:17).

    And what is the will of God?

    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).

    There are two root issues which concern the ongoing controversies between our camp and the camp of our detractors.

    The first concerns the nature of man in his sinful state.

    Our opponents posit sinful man with the power of free will by which he is able to accept or reject the free gift of Christ.

    Within that camp are diverse opinions as to how, exactly, sinful man has the power of free will.

    The Pelagian group believes Adam’s fall did not adversely affect man’s freedom to obey God and choose holiness. True, he has sin issues in his life, but his will to choose or reject has not been utterly destroyed.

    The Arminian group believes God does everything in His power to bring men to saving knowledge of the truth. He sends preachers. He sends the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. He may even give ‘sufficient grace’ which enables all men to choose Christ, if they so will. Through these ‘helps’ of God, man then has the will free to choose wisely or unwisely.

    Ultimately, both groups posit sinful men with the freedom of their wills to obey the command of God to ‘repent and believe the Gospel’, if they so will.

    We reject this teaching as anti-biblical for several reasons.

    1. Christ and the Apostles teach man’s condition as irretrievable lost, dead and blind to the truths of God. He is darkness itself. His hatred of God and holiness is so intense, no matter the proofs of divinity displayed before his very eyes; he would rather see Christ dead than bow down to embrace Him.

    2. By positing man with the power of spiritual insight to discern the truth of Christ, and thereby receive Him with open arms, our adversaries glorify man as a co-laborer and co-redeemer with the Savior. By doing his part, it is man who finishes the work necessary to insure his salvation.

    We reject this premise because it is Christ who finished the work of salvation on the cross (John 19:30). All men who were given Christ by the Father will be saved, according to His perfect timing when they are effectually called to faith by His Spirit.

    The sins of the Elect were paid for in full by Christ, including the sin of unbelief.

    He was raised for our justification (Romans 4:25). Therefore, by virtue of His perfect work in life and death, Christ’s resurrection is the guarantee that all whom the Father gave Him will be justified, their sins having been propitiated by Christ.

    Make no mistake; justification is the gift of God, as is the very faith which justifies.

    3. By positing man with the free will to either accept or reject Christ, our opponents make man the arbiter of his eternal destiny, thereby making man the Lord of his life, whether for good or evil.

    We reject this premise because it is God who holds all mankind in His absolute control and none can hinder His eternal will of purpose; whether it be His eternal purpose to save or His eternal purpose to destroy (Daniel 4:35; Proverbs 21:1).

    The second concerns the role of God in the salvation of sinful man.

    1. Our opponents would preach a God who ‘goes only so far’ in securing the salvation of men.

    In their view, it is of utmost importance that man’s free will not be violated by God. For, that being the case, man’s right to self-determination would be destroyed, thereby making man nothing less than a puppet in the hands of a divine Puppet Master.

    Furthermore, in their view, true love can only be given when the heart and will is free and not compelled.

    We reject this premise because Scripture is clear that we love God because He loved us first (1 John 4:19).

    The cause of our love is God, not our free will.

    2. Our opponents demean the wisdom of God when they preach a God who ‘goes only so far’ in securing the salvation of men. Paul argues that if the Father gave the gift of His most precious Son, the greatest example of love and selflessness ever known, would it not be irresponsible and foolish not to give His Elect all other spiritual blessings/gifts necessary to secure salvation? In other words, if the Father gave the greater, why would He not give the lesser? (Romans 8:32).

    3. And finally, where is the evidence of God’s infinite wisdom and power in sending His Son with the eternal purpose and mission to redeem and save the every inhabitant of the world when He fails to do so?

    Our detractors preach a Jesus who earnestly desires to save all mankind, yet is horribly unsuccessful in His mission.

    We reject this God-dishonoring premise, for Scriptures teach with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:46).

    It is my hope and prayer our readers will meditate and pray about what I have written.
     
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  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    And there's another strawman. Just can't quit, can ya?

    Nobody asked this question.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If I have indicated that it was you who believed that disagreeing with your doctrine was disagreeing with scripture then you have my apology. I did mean that statement but I did not mean it directef at you.

    As this is the second time today you have made the accusation - Where are you claiming that I depart from the "confessional standards"?
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :confused: yea.. ok....
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    ok...I answered you. And, noting that I never questioned the degree to which you adhere to the "confessional standards" I once again appeal to your integrity - where do I depart from "confessional standard"?

    I ask because a couple have trolled me in the past making similar accusations and were corrected for their false statements. When we accuse another then we had best be able to back it up. Otherwise it is merely the sin of gossip.
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Jump in and debate...drive by popshots are not scripture. Show us via scripture where that was a straw man.
     
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Post 112. Icon said I reject or dont hold the "confessional standard". I have not accused him of such. I am asking where my belief departs.

    Try to keep up, bro.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have not even mentioned you, brother. And I have let Icon know I did not mean my reply directed at him (or TC). I am not sure why you both seem to personalize General remarks (especially when I went out of my way to put the context in both camps).

    That said unfounded accusations are gossip. As you say - man up. Where have I denied a "confessional truth"?
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have not called icon a troll. Stop the false accusations now, IT.
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Use scripture to prove something is a strawman? Silliness. Sapper Woody has already addressed this.

    Go back and reread this thread. Where did anyone ask, as Protestant alleges, "Why is doctrine so important?" Answer: No one asked that.

    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
     
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I am asking YOU to address why YOU believe it is a straw man. Brother Sapper Woody...and I consider him a Brother...has addressed it, but not with much scripture.

    Now, why do YOU think it was a straw man? I am not asking for much, but if you jump in, it is only right & fair of me to ask you to expound upon your post.
     
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Not one verse ITL.
     
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Not one verse ITL.
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Not one verse ITL.
     
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  17. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Oh, looky, how convenient that your post using the plurality of trolls has disappeared seemingly. :)
     
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  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Not one verse ITL.
     
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Not one verse ITL.
     
  20. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I clicked on where I quoted it, and it is gone, yet jonc wants me to go find a post he deleted, acting as if it never did exist.

    I clicked to go to it and it said 'I don't have permission' or something. Nothing but games.

    But lo, and behold, I have a screen shot of it. :)
     
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