Hardened by God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Dec 23, 2010.

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God Hardening Pharaoh?

  1. I don't believe God would do such a thing!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. God chooses whom He will harden, and He Himself hardens the person for His purpose and glory.

    84.6%
  3. In this, we see that God chooses us, not the other way around.

    30.8%
  4. God can do whatever He Wills, we are His clay.

    61.5%
  5. God gave up this specific Sovereignty in the NT age. We make the decisions on whom He saves.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. God does all of the choosing in all matters.

    7.7%
  7. God both hardens and softens those whom He wills.

    53.8%
  8. One saved and another lost shows Gods choice, not mans.

    30.8%
  9. Believing we chose Him goes against His Sovereign plan and purpose.

    38.5%
  10. God doesn't harden people any longer.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    When God hardens someone, is that against the "free will" of the one he hardens? Does this mean that God is hardening them against their "own will?" He said He hardened Pharaoh, by the way. Not vice versa, or better, not that Pharaoh did this on his own.

    Looks to me like Pharaoh didn't have a free will either. He was a lump of clay the Potter used for His glory, as with all of us. All glory goes to Him, He does all the saving.
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Evil desire

    Is hardening a heart the same thing as given men over to their own evil desires?
     
  3. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    I don't know, good question, I never thought about that.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Whats God hardening? hmmmm
     
  5. Luke2427

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    What the Bible teaches is that God hardens whom he will to serve his own purposes.

    Those who have a problem with the idea that God decreed that evil exist should have a terrible problem with Pharaoh.

    God hardened him and thus caused Pharaoh to do evil exploits JUST SO GOD COULD SHOW HIS WONDERS and deliver Israel with a mighty hand.

    Did Pharaoh harden his own heart- absolutely. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart- absolutely. Are they two morally equivalent? Absolutely NOT.

    God's motive was pure and just and holy- to show his glory! There is NO NOBLER motive for ANYONE to do ANYTHING.

    Pharaoh's motive was wicked- to prevent God's glory.


    The same thing is true with Joseph.

    Joseph said of his brothers evil deed- you meant it for evil but God meant it for good.

    God ordained that Joseph's brothers would do what their evil hearts wanted to do- but God's motive was glorious whereas the brothers motive was wicked.
     
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Men ideas

    Luke 13:34
    “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

    Hebrews 3:
    Warning Against Unbelief
    7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    8 do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion,
    during the time of testing in the wilderness,
    9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
    though for forty years they saw what I did.
    10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
    I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
    and they have not known my ways.’
    11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
    ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[Psalm 95:7-11]

    12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

    “Today, if you hear his voice,
    do not harden your hearts
    as you did in the rebellion.”[Psalm 95:7,8 ]

    16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  7. preacher4truth

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    Php 2:13 "for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

    He causes us to desire, and even to do of His good pleasure? Why this bothers some concerns me. This is also God in our salvation, doing the same exact thing, causing us to desire it, and to do it.


    Pro 21:1 "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will."

    God does whatever He wills with a Kings heart? That's what He is saying right here.


    Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

    You mean, it is God who directs even our very steps?

    God is Sovereign and I trust His choices and His Wisdom, even if I do not understand. Did not Job say "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him." ?
     
  8. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Job 9
    29 Since I am already found guilty,
    why should I struggle in vain?
    30 Even if I washed myself with soap
    and my hands with cleansing powder,
    31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
    so that even my clothes would detest me.

    32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
    that we might confront each other in court.
    33 If only there were someone to mediate between us,
    someone to bring us together,
    34 someone to remove God’s rod from me,
    so that his terror would frighten me no more.
    35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
    but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

    Job 16:
    18 “Earth, do not cover my blood;
    may my cry never be laid to rest!
    19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
    my advocate is on high.
    20 My intercessor is my friend
    as my eyes pour out tears to God;
    21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
    as one pleads for a friend.

    22 “Only a few years will pass
    before I take the path of no return.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Sin hardens by itself.When God does not give grace people are said to harden their own hearts.
    There is also an action by God where and when a person is cut-off in time. There comes a point known unto to God when a person is reprobated as those described in romans 1 and jer 6:30
    or as Jesus spoke in real time to these men in jn10:26
     
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Depends on God

    It does depend on God for He tells us that He would keep the meek and humble who trust in the Lord, not their own understand. Then Christ will direct their paths and God does hide the truth for the wise and the learned, those who do not trust in the Lord, but themselves.

    Those who are not His sheep is simple those who disowned Him, for He will disown them. Jesus came into His own, but His own received Him not.
     
  11. Luke2427

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    Very good verses and very clear truth.

    Non-reformed people tend to accuse Reformed people of basing their beliefs on a system not Scripture. What they refuse to acknowledge is that we are constantly posting Scriptures that PLAINLY teach the Doctrines of Grace.

    The fact of the matter is that the Reformation was a RETURN to Scripture- it was a REVOLT against those who debased Scripture for man-made systems.

    The clarion call of the REFORMation was "SOLA SCRIPTURA!!"

    IMO, the less REFORMed people are the less Scriptural they tend to be.


    Another good verse along these lines is:
    "The lot is cast in the lap but its every decision is from the Lord."

    What? You mean something as random as the casting of the die is determined by the Lord??

    There has never been a die cast which result was not determined by God in eternity past!

    When you play Monopoly- EVERY single result from your die cast was predetermined by God before the world was made!

    That is our God!!

    Bless his Sovereign and Holy and Mighty name!!
     
    #11 Luke2427, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    EVERYONE disowns him until God changes their heart.

    Only those who God changes can come to him and EVERYONE God changes WILL come to him.
     
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    The lot cast was on people who believed who was already His to make the 12
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    What?????

    I apologize. I don't mean this as an insult at all- I hope you will not take it that way. Is English your first language?
     
  15. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Nope

    Nope English is my first language. It doesn't matter about my weakness God will use what I say for the benifit of those who love Him. i can make excuses for not doing what i am lead to do, by saying i can't articulate my words well, but I will not.
     
  16. moral necessity

    moral necessity
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    Speaking about myself here: It amazes me how small God is to us, within our sin-crippled minds. The God who always exists, who creates and owns everything, who alone is Sovereign over every molecule in the universe, right down to every sparrow falling and every hair being numbered,...and yet we gravitate to claim a corner of the universe within ourselves and call it "free" from God, and make ourselves out to be the only god over it.

    It reeks of arrogance to me and reminds me of something presented as a temptation to Eve, "you shall be like God..."
     
  17. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    He is none of that if His word is not true and He doesn't do what He said He will do. He revealed Himself through His Son. If we know Jesus we know the Father.

    Mark 14
    48 “Am I leading a rebellion,” said Jesus, “that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”
     
    #17 psalms109:31, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Not so simple;
    They believe not....because they are not his sheep.
     
  19. quantumfaith

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    Sorry, truly do not understand your point here.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Unfortunately your post is very solid here. It is sad how the effects of sin how hindered us from thinking right thoughts of God.
     

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