Hardened by God?

I am with you here, sort of, Pharoah already was probably very much inclined to maintaining control of the Hebrews. At the same time, God was demonstrating to Moses, and those witnesses, as well as us today that He can and will control and do whatsoever He so desires.

 

Excellent point. You should post more often.

 

Jesus

Jesus did come into His own, but His own received Him not. They are His sheep, but God has cut them out not for not being chosen, but for unbelief.

Jesus tells us why because if you disown Him as in they were already His, He will disown you

 

He will

I agree. God will do whatever He pleases and He pleases to save those who believe in His Son and hide the truth for the wise and learned. That is God good pleasure.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

Note that though God said He would Harden Pharaoh's heart.. we see God doing this ONLY AFTER Pharaoh had already denied them leave. God fulfilled His word, but he had to in order that Pharaoh would not relent and He could show His power fully. However we KNOW God did not do this (hardening) prior because scripture tells us exactly when God hardened his heart, and is found after Pharaoh already denied them leave.

This goes to the same thing I state previously in 2 other threads.. God turning them over to their own desires. He hardens them AFTER they have chosen to deny him. We this summed up in 2 Thes 2:10-12 and many other places that speak to the same thing

 

Oh My goodness.....you strike directly at the heart of the issue! Bravo buddy :applause:

 

Wait a minute- did you just say that God hardened Pharaoh so that Pharaoh would not relent so that God could show his power??

You're coming awful close, Allan, to the truth.:thumbs:

 

Actually Pharoah's heart was already hard. All sinners have a hard heart. God knew in advance that he would not submit Yet God harden his heart further. Even after He gave in and let the people go he changed his mind a short time later and chased the people through the red sea only to meet his death. When the sea flowed over him and drowned him. If not for freewill Pharoah would not have been able to change his mind and chase them.
Jonah also showed freewill while in the stomach of a great fish for three days. Even though he was about to meet his death from being in the stomach of the fish. He made a life decision He chose to do what God had told him to do. To go to Ninevah and preach. therefore Jonah chose life instead of death.

The story of Pharoah and Moses doesn't support your theory that man cannot resist the Lord.
MB

 

Yes, Moses recorded that God hardened Pharoah's heart.

Yes, Moses recorded that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

Both are true. I express this truth by saying that God has declared the terms and circumstances under which hardening will take place.

So, I'm taking both sides of the argument.

 

God only hardened Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh rejected God. Had Pharaoh repented, God would not have hardened his heart. God accepts those who respond to His message. Again, another Calvinistic error.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

I don't know why this is so mysterious to people, we experience this every day. The root of this problem is pride.

Some people are very humble and open-minded, while others are very arrogant and close-minded. If you debate with a humble person, they will at least consider your opinion. An arrogant person is very different, they will often become very obstinate and stubborn. I call it "putting up a wall". This is hardening. They are not going to give in no matter what.

With some folks, you learn it simply does not pay to engage in a debate. Their mind is made up, and they will not concede even the smallest point you might make. These persons often get very angry and abusive quickly.

The root of this is pride. And this was Pharaoh's problem. What was the very first thing Pharaoh said to Moses?

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

The pharaohs believed themselves divine. It is not hard to imagine that Pharaoh believed himself a god. Therefore he was not going to submit to and obey anyone in heaven or earth.

We have all dealt with persons like this, and many times we ourselves act like this. We do not want to admit we might be wrong. We certainly do not like to believe ourselves inferior to others. Many times we react by becoming angry and obstinate. This is hardening. The more the other person pushes their point, the more angry and stubborn we become.

I mean, some folks get so angry they pull out a gun and shoot somebody. In my area we recently had a shooting in a sports bar where two guys were arguing about their favorite team.

This becoming obstinate is what is meant by hardening. You can imagine that every time God brought a plague on Egypt that Pharaoh was humiliated and embarrassed. He only gave in when he had no choice. If you notice in this account, it was always when God ceased a plague that it says Pharaoh's heart was hardened.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Amazing, it was when God showed Pharaoh mercy and stopped a plague that Pharaoh became hardened. He was just an evil, arrogant person. It is very likely that one reason he went back on his word was simply revenge.

But we see this every day. We all know of someone you just cannot hold a discussion with because they will become angry and obstinate. If we wanted to harden them it is easy, just simply continue to engage with them. You can get some folks so angry they will try to harm you.

And this is all there was to it, God knew Pharaoh was very arrogant and full of pride. He knew how Pharaoh would react when confronted.

Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

God told Moses even before he went down to Egypt that he knew Pharaoh would not submit to him. And God knew Pharaoh would become more arrogant and obstinate when confronted. There is nothing mysterious or complicated about this story.

 

I am very much in agreement with you that PRIDE is very much a factor. Our brothers on the other side of the aisle then respond with, "from where does this pride" or "attitude of rebellion stem"?

 

No. This is another error of those who oppose God's truth.
You can speak and post against God;s truth all you want but i would not recommend it.As long as these verses are in the bible, you place yourself in opposition to the truth of God.

 

Kind of a silly question, but I think you answered it yourself for whatever the answer is worth. Are you really a preacher?

 

Exodus 5

This passage seems to me to indicate that Pharaoh had already inclined his heart and will in line with his authoritative pride.

"Who is the Lord that I should obey him"? "I do not know the the Lord and will not let Israel go."

Exodus 6

God's direction to Moses that He will direct the course of events and guarantee the outcome of this encounter.

I think reasonable people can come to such conclusions, that Pharaoh had already exhibited his pride and refusal to consider the demands of Moses and Aaron, and thus refuse God himself.

Making the claim that one is in "opposition" to the truth of God's word is a matter once again of your interpretation.

 

Iconclast, I stand corrected, at least for the moment, just found Exodus 4:21

My apologies,

 

No apology necessary brother.The truth delights to be investigated.
Pharoah as a pagan idolator did what he wanted to do,as many wicked persons who rebel against Kingdom rule today do.Three times he hardened his own heart,but as you have noticed several times God told Moses He would harden Pharoahs heart ,for God;s own purpose and glory.

The good thing that we can can all realize is that we win in Christ! The whole exodus account is given for our learning. God's eternal plan is perfect and as we know God never has to go to plan B. The wicked acts of wicked men never surprise or derail God's promises to His blood bought church.
This whole account is written not so we can have a subject to debate on the BB, but rather that we can learn from the first Exodus[historical,but a type] of the New Exodus we are involved in as The Lord Jesus Christ leads us to our heavenly home.

When rightly understood this is one of the most exciting passages in the bible for a true child of God. The Lord Jesus is the fulfillement of all the OT types and shadows, and Us In Him!

 

Please understand, with humility and respect, this does not affect my position theologically, at least not yet, I have always and do recognize God"s authority and sovereignty, but not in the same manner as those (yourself) who hold to "reformed doctrines". But I did jump the gun on those passages, I freely admit.