has begotten us again to a living hope

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. percho

    percho
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    For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24,25 KJV

    Hope of what? Did we receive our hope at the moment of our, "regeneration"? Do we receive this hope at our death? Is what we hope for the underlined below?

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1 Peter 1:3-13 KJV

    Why do we have this hope? Is it because: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 2 Cor. 5:5

    Isn't regeneration that which is actually hoped for?
     
  2. agedman

    agedman
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    You were doing good until that last question.

    If we have received regeneration, then there remains no more hope.

    But because regeneration is not that hope, then the "earnest" is the payment made that holds the contract. Remember the "earnest money" when one purchases a house?

    What is the earnest?

    It is the WHY we have the hope, not the hope itself.

    The believer hopes because they have the earnest of the Holy Spirit. The guarantee by God that the contract will be fulfilled just as Christ promised.
     
  3. percho

    percho
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    and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecc. 12:5,7

    There is no desire, for the man has died and returned to dust and the spirit returns to the God who gave it. What did this spirit from the God do for the dust that had once been a man of desire?

    It gave soul, living, to the dust formed as a man. The spirit gave life to the blood circulating within the flesh making it soul with life. A living soul.
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

    Lev. 17:11 For the life (נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, soul of the flesh is in the blood: ----- for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Now who's blood makes atonement for our soul? The blood of the Christ.
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

    How did Jesus the Christ come into the world?
    This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; 1 John 5:7
    Who testifies of that?
    and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth, 1 John 5:7 YLT

    Job says, 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: How? Paul says, Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The corruptible body of flesh with temporary life from God by spirit life circulating in the blood. How?

    By being born again/from above by the Spirit.

    The Son of God, Jesus Christ came into the world by the water, and the blood; Born of woman. Jesus died. Jesus was subject to corruption yet his flesh did not see corruption because God gave him the sure mercies of David.

    How did God give him the sure mercies of David. By raising his soul from Hades and not allowing his flesh to see corruption.
    Acts 13:30, 33,34 But God raised him from the dead: God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Who will give to who?

    Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. Col 1:18 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 5:9 Why does death have no more dominion over him? John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Our sins were washed from us by the blood, that which gave life to Jesus was poured out and by the grace of God his Father, Jesus was regenerated and renewed with Holy Spirit life. Flesh and bone as he have.

    Show me from scripture where I have misquoted a scripture or taken out of context.
     
  4. agedman

    agedman
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    Never said you did.

    I was showing how your last statement was not consistent with that of the Romans passage you posted:

    For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24,25 KJV

    You asked, "Isn't regeneration that which is actually hoped for?"

    I answered with no.

    I showed you why with the understanding that I didn't have to post verses because logic itself would hold that if one is regenerated and has hope, then the hope is not the regeneration.

    For just as your own OP opens hope that is seen (or realized) is not hope. And "why doth he yet hope for" if it is already a part of the life of the believer?

    Then I showed what the Holy Spirit was the earnest and that regeneration was a part.

    I don't know why you think I was showing you not quoting Scriptures correctly or taking anything out of context.

    There was nothing in my post to even suggest I did.
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    Redemption is that which is hoped for. We have not yet seen it.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman
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    I agree if by redemption you mean the final estate of the new heaven and new earth, the new body, and all that which pertains to that wonderful hope :)
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    Yes that is what I mean but would include the return of the Lord.
     
  8. percho

    percho
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    A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. John 16:21

    Is that not a description also of the following?

    For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:22,23

    What is the whole creation groaning and travailing about?

    Verse 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. ----- Is that not birth? Birth as glorified sons of God inheritors of the kingdom of God with our joint inheritor Jesus Christ?
    See Rom 8:16,17 1 Cor 15:50

    Is it not the flesh, without the blood for it's being, that is incorruptible flesh, or as Paul put it in another place, our house from heaven, that we must be born with before entering, seeing and or inheriting the kingdom of God? The gospel first spoken of by Jesus.

    How does the gospel bring to light life and incorruptibility? By Jesus being put to death in the flesh and being made alive through the Spirit; 1 Peter 3:18
    no more to return to corruption; Acts 13:34 death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9

    Another thought.

    Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66:7,8

    When will this nation (I say the kingdom of God) be born at once, be born in one day?
    When was that man child of verse 7 born without pain or travail?
     
    #8 percho, Dec 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2013
  9. agedman

    agedman
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    Isaiah was a truly remarkable prophet. Often in his record there is "double vision" in what will be an immediate prophecy which is basking in the light of a larger future prophecy.

    This section of Isaiah is the same.

    It concerns not just the return and rebuilding of Jerusalem that would take place before Christ came (think Nehemiah), but the return and rebuilding program that takes place at the time of the second coming.

    Notice the statements about the whole world and the list of nations given that are obliged to respond? They were not directly involved in the immediate future of which Isaiah spoke, but are most certainly a part of the larger prophecy yet to come.

    The world will be shaken violently both by politics and by wars taking place during the latter half of the tribulation, but more, the world will contend with the huge wrath God continually pours out upon heathens. Such tribulation, Christ said, that the world has never known. Consider the tribulation of the flood - that was huge - the coming tribulation will make that seem small.

    Christ said that if the time were not shortened (or appointed to end) not a single life would remain.

    Never before has such a time occurred in history. It is coming. And it is followed by some of what Isaiah saw and recorded in this chapter. A glorious time to look forward too.
     
  10. Ebenezer

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    When the Bible says "we are saved by hope" (Romans 8:24), it immediately clarifies such hope in saying, "but hope that is seen is not hope", which should point you straight to Hebrews 11:1, "Now Faith is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN". Obviously, there is an hope that people entertain, that Romans 8:24 says "IS NOT HOPE" if it is "hope that is seen". So there are two kinds of hope, one that is seen which is a false hope, that the Bible considers "is not HOPE" at all. The true hope, is that which "IS NOT SEEN", and that is connected with Biblical faith, which "faith is the substance...SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen". So true Biblical hope has "SUBSTANCE", and that substance is "FAITH", which is also "THE EVIDENCE of things not seen." There is only ONE faith that fits those requirements, and Galatians 3 identifies it as the "faith of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 3:22). "THAT FAITH" (3:25) is the only faith that can save you, and also endow you with hope: and such hope, that though NOT SEEN, is the evidence of things not seen.
     
  11. percho

    percho
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    Before the faith of Gal 3:25 came they were under the law Verse 23, called a schoolmaster in verse 24. In verse 25 they are no longer under a schoolmaster, no longer under the law.

    What had taken place that removed them from being under the law, a schoolmaster?

    It is said in Gal. 4:4 of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of God, that he was born of woman, born under the law. Verse 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    What took place that redeemed them that were under the law?

    What happened that became? The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. The faith that removed them from being under the law, a schoolmaster.

    Was what took place, that redeemed them from being under the law, determined or foreordained to take place before the foundation of the world and what was promised before the world begin? What was foreordained and what was promised. Who was it ordained for and who was the promise for?

    Before the God said let there be light?
     

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