has God Determined/Caused Sinners To be Depravied And unable To get saved ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Aug 5, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Seems that many here see it as "not fair: that God allows sinful persons to be born/created etc without a chance to even get saved by God//

    Who causes that state, God or man?
     
  2. quantumfaith

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    Who exactly whines the "not fair" mantra? I have not seen it. Do you attempt to imply that whoever is non-cal cries foul and "not fair"?
     
  3. JesusFan

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    No, am not implying that all non cals here are viewing God in this fashion, BUT just seems to be a 'feeling' that some holding to their Sotierology views somehow feel that it makes God out a "monster" if he was indeed saving as cals see the Bible supporting!

    Guess get this from the common posting that those holding to DoG here are in "blind faith" "calvin not God" and that God IF as DoG state, is a pupper master, we His drones!
     
  4. quantumfaith

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    The use of the "monster" metaphor by most that use it is simply an over exagerration to attempt to make a point. I do not whine (nor do most others) about God being fair, but I will take the stance that God is "just".

    18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

    21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Now we may in fact disagree exactly what constitutes this "justice" of God. But most non-cals (myself included) do not see a "just" God creating untold numbers of people who NEVER (in His eyes) have even a glimpse of hope of salvation but rather are simply doomed to an eternity of torment because HE decreed that they should be.

    Please do not misunderstand me, I am NOT arguing that HE does not have the authority and power to do so, as I would rarely attempt to say what God will (can) or will not do. Rather I am saying, as I read and strive to understand Him through His Word and presence in my life, I do not see Him as doing as the calvinist suggests.
     
  5. Robert Snow

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    If this were the true, I believe it would make God into a monster. Thank God, that it isn't true at all. God isn't a monster and He doesn't allow people to be born with no possibility of being saved.

    Again, it would be true if this belief was correct, which it isn't.
     
  6. Rippon

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    The fact of human depravity is the monstrosity --not the fact that the Lord has hidden the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from many throughout the centuries.

    Mankind is to blame for their sin which the Lord cannot be blamed for. God,as has been said so many times before, is not obligated to save anyone. The Lord does not have to savingly reveal Himself to anyone. It is because of His mercy that anyone is saved. Since every human being throughout history --past,present and future is worthy of eternal damnation. Why the hue and cry that it's not fair that the Lord doesn't give each and every person an equal chance at salvation? To repeat something I have said many times --God is not an Equal-Opportunity Savior. Salvation has nothing in common with western ideas of democracy.
     
  7. InTheLight

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    Here we go again....

    John 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[
     
  8. Robert Snow

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    Like I said, we know God is not a monster; Calvinism is not true!
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    OK guess that all are saved by your interpretation & going to heaven....right?
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Then everyone would go to heaven correct....His abiding love would be so strong that He could not send any to hell, all have salvation.....anything less is monstrous, right?
     
  11. Baptist boy

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    Can you explain these verses then which seem to do away with everything you just said:
    Romans 9:11-24

    11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
    12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.:godisgood:
    15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    probably not....:laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbsup:
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    You hit the kernel EWF, no matter how eloquently or boldly or loudly ANY of us make our claim, it always simplifies to this.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

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    Here we go indeed! 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19).

    If God did not decree to save some, no one would ever be saved (Jer 13:23; John 6:38-9, 44).

    Steve
     
  15. Robert Snow

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    This is about God choosing Israel as a nation.

    This elaborates this choice by God. Then in verse 24 we find the point of the passage: God has set aside Israel for a short time, to bring in the Gentiles to the kingdom of God.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    what, in your estimation and understanding of the Scripture, would make God "just" ?
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    Well, I hope that it is obvious from my history. I do not take the position that God has decreed that only "some" of mankind will be granted the option of salvation while all others are hopelessly lost with zero probability. I believe salvation is available to any and all who have ever drawn breath.

    I believe salvation exists ONLY because of Grace of God, but I also believe it is conditioned upon the faith and belief of mankind.

    This aspect of "justice" is limited to soteriology, His attribute of Justnce certainly has much broader application and meaning.
     
  18. Rippon

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    Robert Snow: Please go line by line of the above post of mine and tell us what you find objectionable. Is there anything that I said that you agree with?
     
  19. Robert Snow

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    The problem isn't with these statements. If this were all there was to it, I would say we tend to believe alike. However, it's the conclusions you come to that begin our differences.

    I don't have any problem with salvation being limited. The difference is, I don't think God does the limiting. God offers salvation to all who will come to Christ and accept forgiveness. Man, by refusing to obey God, does the limiting. God would allow all to be saved if all would obey the Gospel.

    I also realize that you probably will say that man cannot obey because his is dead. Again, we disagree on the definition of the term, dead. You think it means total inability; I believe it means separation.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    My problem with your statement Robert is that the efficacy of the central acts of salvation (IE., Regeneration, election, Atonement etc.,) DO NOT depend on "God Alone" but also on the cooperation of men who are fallen sinners. You say that Man's response to God is the determining factor for getting salvation.
     
    #20 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2011

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