Have you ever Spoken in Tounges

Thanks hrhema for refreshing my memory. I knew that!

I suppose I should have read the 14th chapter of 1 Cor. again, before posting. I was thinking about the difference between the baptism of the Spirit and the gift of tongues and forgot about the other.

Guess that's what I get for not reading more and posting less. That's not good!

So, anyway, Don there is your answer.

MEE

 

hrhema,
You are being deceitful when you make a statement and don't back it up with Scripture. You gave a reference (book and chapter) which says the exact opposite of what you said. That is hypocritical and deceitful. The Bible says to rightfully divide the Word of truth, not wrongfully. Let's look at the Scripture you referred to:

1Cor.12:28,29
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Here is where the gifts are listed. This is the passage that you referred to. Notice the list that Paul gives in verse 28. The gifts are listed in order of importancee. We can see that by the adverbs used: firstly, secondly, thirdly, and after that, meaning in this order. He put in order of importance the gifts of the spirit. Which one was last? Which one was of least importance? Tongues is right at the bottom of the list, dead last. It is not an important gift; least of all the gifts, and yet Charismatics make it the most important. You have things backwards don't you? You quote Scripture out of its context to prove your own point. That is wrong. It what Peter referred to as: "they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2Pet.3:16).

Now consider the verses that follows, verss 29,30:
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

These are rhetorical questions, the obvious answer of which is "NO!. Not all are apostles or prophets. Not all have the gift of healing. And not all have the gift of tongues. Not all were to seek the gift of tonges either. This verse teaches the exact opposite of that. In fact it supports the view that tongues were only for a temporary period of time.

Keep in mind:

"they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2Pet.3:16).

This is what you are doing again: giving a reference and quoting the verse. Taking it out of context to prove your own point without even referring to the verse. That is shameful to say the least. And it is just what Peter is referring to! Now look at the verses you are apparently referring to IN THEIR PROPER CONTEXT.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

The entire chapter is a chapter of contrast. Paul is contrasting the gift of tongues to the gift of prophecy. He is contrasting a gift that does not edify to a gift that does edify. He is contrasting a gift that brings confusion to the church to a gift that brings understanding and order to the church.
That small word "but" is very important. It is the word that indicates contrast. To use an example, a label might read:
"HCL has many good and useful purposes BUT,
Do not drink it!"

"2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."
BUT do not do it, because prophesying is better.

Paul was sayng tongues does not edify the church. It does not speak unto men, he says. "No man understands him. He speaks mysteries. Therefore don't do it. It is not edifying to the church. This statemenet was a rebuke, not an encouragememt. Don't do it. Thus the very next word is "BUT." That is very significant. When you use this verse to support speaking in tongues you are ripping the verse out of its context and wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction, jusst as Peter says. You are using it to say the opposite of it what it really is saying. Paul is saying here Don't speak in tongues, if its sole purpose is just to speak to God and to edify your self.

Let me ask you this. Go through all the spiritual gifts. How many of them are used only for themselfves? How many of them are used selfishly as you claim that tongues can be used--as a prayer language just for yourself--for self edification? For example: the gift of helps--is it ever used only to help yourself and no one else? The gift of miracles--is it used just to perform miracles on oneself and not on anyone else. The gift of administration--Is it use just to administer your own personal affairs and not the affairs of the church? The gift of healing--Was it just to heal your self and not to heal any one else? Were all these gifts selfish gifts just to be used for one's personal use? Of course not! EVERY gift was a gift given to the local church, for the benefit of the local church, and that included tongues. If the gift of tongues could not be used to edify the entire church then it was out of order. It was a gift given for the whole church. It was not a gift to be used selfishly for one's one use, for one's own edification. To think that is to think wrongly and it is to take Scripture out of its context. It is wresting the Scripture to one's own destruction.

You are in danger of wresting the Scripture to your own destruction. I have in the past given a challenge to you, MEE and Oneness to go through the entire chapter, 1Cor.14, verse by verse, and on that basis see whether the tongues spoken today is Scriptural or not? Isn't it odd that I have no response to that challenge.
DHK

 

DHK,

Amidst your charm in quoted verse
Where Jesus may be found
You tend to serve the matter worse
On subjects where you're bound

And who's to say that we may not
Give strength unto ourselves
Through prayer when done in spirit form
Where critics will not delve.

For it is peace and joy at least
That comes from searching on
And who's to slander us in this
Pursuit of what we've won

So don't deprive me of my gain
That I have found in Him
He shows us each unto our own
It's You who's on the rim.

Singer

 

And who's to say???
If it's done through tongues, the Bible says!
DHK

 

DHK,

tounges could also be silly answers to silly questions we ask God.

Like how did that axehead float?

would such an answer edify you if I received the answer ?

when I try to express my answer to you..you think Im foolish. (maybe even if you were a non-believer). So God says. "let every word be established in the mouth of two or three". if I have a slightly different way of looking at Gods answers to man. He's simply saying..dont explain your "tounge". yourself. Let somebody else back you up.
it gives the "tounge" more weight of proof of an individuals opinions.

dont you practice your language skills ?. concerning your explanations of your "beliefs". just in case you have to back somebody up ?..
maybe even trying to use props and diagrams. facts and figures?..these are forms of tounges also.

thats pauls contentions..if nobody doesnt know whats being expressed..just drop the subject.


I just though of a new tounge for you...maybe Its one you already understand..when you are trying to get people to comprehend that Jesus is lord without them personally getting the understanding from God himself..

to them..your using an unknown tounge.
its Like speaking in another language to them.
but your speaking english....???

but once they understand the language or "tounge".. the tounge ceases..
it becomes knowledge.

[ April 21, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

And who's to say??? If it's done through tongues, the Bible says!


And even though insist you may
Solutions you have found
One never should intend upon
The Spirit to be bound

For bible does not indicate
On tongues...it does not warn
But rather mentions in its midst
And for us not to scorn

For how can we in all our lack
Know that which God intends
Let the spirit flow my friend
Be quick in what transcends.

For if you're off in your advice
When dealing with the gifts
How can you claim it's not of God
If spirits for them lift.

Singer


Singer

 

hrhema, MEE -- those were good answers, and the sort of thing I'm looking for.

Now consider carefully: The "evidence" of the Holy Ghost baptism was NOT just speaking in tongues. The apostles in Acts also did marvelous works and wonders (Acts 2:43; Acts 8:13, 18) and most especially, some of those that the Holy Ghost fell upon prophesied (Acts 19:6).

Paul mentions the gift of prophesy in 1 Corinthians 12, and then again 1 Corinthians 14. Are these different "gifts" of prophesy that he's talking about?

 

Singer,
What you have said borders on heresy. "Where Jesus may be found" is not in "charm" nor in "quoted verse" Jesus is found in the Word of God. You did not answer any of the Scripture that I posted. You gave a rebuttal with a poem. That may be cute, but it doesn't answer any questions. Use Scripture not poetry.

1Pet.3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Be ready always to give an answer, singer. Peter was not speaking about poetry.

Study to show yourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed but rightly dividing the word of truth. (2Tim.2:15)
--Again, Paul does not refer to poetry.

Search the Scriptures, Jesus said.

If what I have said in the Scriptures is wrong, then show me where it is wrong. If it is right, then you have an obligation to believe it.
DHK

 

If I remember to be right
We've traversed this before
And to do so once again
It's sure to be a bore

For I've received the light I have
From many years gone by
And I am blessed with simple faith
In Christ whom I rely

And here I'm faced with words from those
Who steady though they be
Are feeding on some other truths
That I have yet to see

So keeping what I have been given
And working where I'm placed
Is not so much in vain I fear
My life is not a waste

For with some word I tend to rant
And some to aggravate
I'd rather close this phase of life
Than you to agitate

I love your message brother D
And wishing for your best
So rather than to implicate
I'll put you to the test

Can we agree to disagree
And still remain a friend
For Christ is found in many ways
My faith in Him won't bend

Scripture comes and scripture goes
And though I honor all
I cannot say I do agree
How some will choose to call

MY input as you ask of me
To prove by written word
Would only fail to remedy
What so far has been heard.

It's futile here to carry on
And make our selves the fool
And sit in judgement of ourselves
By such we're satan's tool

I rest in peace that I have found
The goal that is so near
And whether I recite His words
as wrong...He still will hear !

Singer

 

Hey Singer, nice poetry. You seem to have a knack for words. I can't say I agree with all you say, but your efforts are appreciated non-the-less.

You wrote:"""""Nah...I don't see it that way at all.
How could they violate scripture when Paul said "What is it then" ?
His resolution was in verse 15 of 1 Cor 14:

" I will pray with the spirit AND I will pray with the understanding also"

Do you think Paul would have violated scripture....?
Heck man he WROTE IT...!!!"""""


Singer, Paul was pointing out in that verse that if you pray, you need to do it with the understanding of what you are saying. Paul is outright saying hear that if you pray and do not understand what you are saying it is not right. Paul says to pray and to pray so you understand what you are saying. He is saying then not to pray in gibberish. Earlier someone mentioned "mysteries" as a good thing. Paul was rebuking that idea as well. The pagans of that time spoke "mysteries" (gibberish, estatic speech) to their gods and Paul is saying that the corinth church was doing the same thing the pagan were and the only thing it accomplishes is that you feel "good" or "high" after you do it and Paul says that feeling is wrong because you should "understand" yourself when you speak to God. Hope that at least gives clarity to what Paul is saying. thoughts of mine sometime get a little confused from my brain to my hands

In Christ,
Brian

 

Brian, Paul isn't saying that it isn't right to speak in tongues. He is saying, in 1 Cor. 14:13, that one is to "pray that he may "interept."

1 Cor.14:39-40)
39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and "forbid not" to speak with tongues.
40) Let all things be done decently and in order.

How does paganism get into the Word of God, in this situation? Also, why do you use words like "gibberish, mysteries, or getting high?

Another thing, where did you get your information?

MEE

 

"Let love be your highest goal, but also desirethe special abilities the Spirit gives, especially the gift of prophecy. For if your giftis the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be MYSTERIOUS. But one who prophesies is helping others frow in the Lord, encouraging and comforting them. A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally in the Lord, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

I WISH YOU ALL HAD THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES, but even more I wish you were all able to prophesy. For prophecy is a greater and more useful gift then speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church can get some good out of it.

Paul went on to say "For if I pray in tonguyes, my SPIRIT IS PRAYING, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. His solution was to do both. Pray in tongues or pray in the spirit then pray with the language he understands.

Paul said when we speak in tongues we are speaking unto God mysteries.

Again there are two distinctive tongues. The tongues a person speaks in when filled with the Holy Ghost. Tongues a person prays in and tongues that God gives which are interpreted.

 

Correction: Three distinctive tongues.

 

If its mysterious it is against the will of God. God doesn't want that which is mysterious, he wants understanding. That is why he advocates prophecy over tongues. Read the chaper. "He is strengthened personally," you say. That is another way of saying he is being selfish. The gift of tongues (used Biblically) is not a selfish gift. God does not advocate selfishness. It was a gift given for the edification for the entire church. There is only ONE gift of tongues, not two or three.

Understand the true meaning of this verse. Consider what Paul is really saying. It would be good if they not only had tongues but had all the gifts of the spirit, but especially prophecy. Prophecy is the most valuable gift because it edifies the whole church. Tongues does not edify. It is the least of all the gifts. He is not giving any pre-eminence to the gift of tongues. Read the following verses instead of takig this one out of its context.

Yep, Paul doesn't understand--therefore don't do it! His solution was not to speak in tongues, but rather prophecy. Read the context.

Yes he did. Therefore, because they are mysteries, and the church cannot understand, don't speak in tongues. The conclustion is obvious. These gifts were given for the edification of the church, not for the selfish edification of oneself. Was any other gift given for selfish personal use? Please answer.

Wrong again. There is but one Scriptural gift of tongues. All others were fakes, pagan, and of the flesh. If you have a gift of tongues that does not meet the requirements that Paul has set forth in 1Cor.14 it is not of God. There is but one gift of tongues, not two, nor three as your following post suggests.
DHK

 

Brothers&Sisters,
THE SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE

The language came as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2;4).Utterance means the ability to speak plainly,to declare openly,or to have the ability to enunciate with clarity.The people spoke,but the words came through the ability or enabling of the Holy Ghost.They spoke as the Spirit gave utterance.

When you do something you are doing it with assistance.If you walk across the room,you are walking as your feet move.Your feet are the tool being used to carry out the mission of walking.

The believers at Pentecost spoke the language of heaven,but only as the Holy Ghost gave them utterance.

God Bless.

 

Carol and hrhema, Read below the KJV of the verses in question. Look at the word "but" which I think DHK pointed out. It is a bad thing/ good thing here throughout. It is what to do and what not to do. Tongues, used wrongly are bad. They don't edify the body. Look at the verse below that speaks of a battle cry. It is saying if the horn sounds notes that the soldiers don't recognise they won't be ready for battle. It is the same for the person using tongues to self edify, it accomplishes nothing like the horn that plays random notes. Paul even says the words spoken should be understood or they are just thrown up and lost in the air, like a balloon on a windy day, the words are lost, wasted.

Tongues in 50AD were fine and even useful in forwarding the gospel and that is why Paul says not to forbid them. Speaking in the language of a foreigner is a cool thing. Plus it had to be done to fulfill scripture and warn Isreal. 1 corinthians is a book of rebukes and tongues gets hammered heavy because it mimmicked what the pagans at that time were doing.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

hrhema, what version of the Bible did you use? It seems to be a pretty liberal paraphrase.


[1] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
[6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
[7] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
[8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
[9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

 

[6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
[7] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

speak to you a revelation....in tounges
speak to you in knowledge....in tounges
speak to you in prophesying..in tounges
speak to you a doctrine......in tounges

speak to you in english..in a "new" tounge

and speak to you in love..which is an "unknown" tounge to those who do not choose to accept and understand "who Jesus is" by faith.

an unknown tounge to those who choose to follow a false jesus who comes to judge without complete mercy and love and forgiveness and selflessness.

an unknown tounge to those who cannot understand the messages of grace. Its a foreign language, a foreign tounge to those who choose to "add or take away" from Gods message of grace.

I say it depends on your vantage point of what you define it.

its not an old tounge..its new.
I understand ..its a known tounge.
I dont understand..its an unknown tounge.

its things descibing a spirit world.
actually its describing the undescribable.
like defining the unknown and invisible using terms and descriptors of a known and visible world...kinda sorta.

arent we supposed to pray without ceasing..24/7
isnt that just being in Gods presence..focusing on the understanding..the knowledge of who you are to become. you even speak in new terminology and phrases. its a new tounge. in your own "words".

 

And yet again, I point out something that apparently the other side of the discussion doesn't want to think about, and I get ignored....

hrhema, perhaps you and MEE ought to work out your side of the discussion together first; she believes there are only 2 types of tongues (to my knowledge).

Next, either of y'all want to tell me if there are two types of prophesy?

 

Briguy:

I don't know if you recall but we finally agreed to disagree about this topic once before, but reading the scriptures you quoted I just couldn't resist asking you (even though I have lurked this topic since it's beginning)

Do you believe in the spiritual gift of prophesy??

 

Hi MM, Hope you are well.

Prophecy? yes I do. The word is made up of 2 Greek words which mean "to speak" and "before". The word means then "to speak before". This is not in relation to time but "before" others, so in other words the gift is "speaking in front of others" Read 1 Corinth. 14 carefully and you will see that people with this gift "build up" the church. They encourage, etc... and that is why it is a gift for "believers", though it would figure that those gifted in speaking in front of others could be good at witnessing as well. Again MM, think about that definition when reading the chapter and you will see "future telling" is not what is meant by prophecy, for how could knowing whats coming build up the church, it seems to me it would cause mass confusion.

Take care,
In Christ,
Brian