Having trouble with this verse

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Seth&Mattsmom, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. Seth&Mattsmom

    Seth&Mattsmom
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    1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. NKJV

    I was reading this last night, and verse 28 stuck me and is bothering me. Please help me to understand this so my faith isn't attacked!

    If the Son is put under God and made subject to him, doesn't this ruin the trinity? All equal and one? And what about "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever"? Does this verse lower Christ? It hurts to think that He will not be equal with the Father after all.

    See how my feeble mind is confusing me?
     
  2. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
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    Hi, Seth and Matt's Mom! I don't think you have a feeble mind, I think this is just one of those hard things. This is a verse that the Jehovah's Witnesses love because it appears to place Jesus on a lower plane of existence from the Father, making the Father God and Jesus just his chosen ruler.

    Let me attempt to take a stab at this. I believe that this passage (and others relating the same ideas) pertain not to personal essence, but to roles. In other words, it does not bring into question the deity of Christ. It is not even talking about that. It deals with His role within the Godhead.

    From creation onward, there have been differing roles evident to us within the Godhead. We see this in salvation. The Father elects and predestines. The Son dies for the elect. The Holy Spirit calls, regenerates, and seals them for eternity.

    A differing role does not mean a different status. This is why our understanding of the trinity is important for our understanding of the husband wife relationship. We are made in God's image. At least part of this involves male and female - two persons of equal status with differing roles involved in the relationship.

    The Son has always subjected Himself to the Father in that it is the role of the Father to lead and the Son to follow. This does not make Him any less God.

    Example - I have a 5-year old son. He is definitely subservient to me (at least he is supposed to be!). But the fact that he is supposed to subject himself to me does not make him any less human. He is still 100% human - of the same essence as me.

    Human examples always fail in comparison to God, but this one is ok. Jesus, no matter what role He takes is always 100% God - of the same essence as the Father. Even when He became a man, He was 100% God. When the end comes and He turns over everything to the Father, He will still be 100% God.

    I hope this helps a little.
     
  3. Seth&Mattsmom

    Seth&Mattsmom
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    You know it helps a lot. I pray to the Father, not to Jesus, because it is the way that Jesus taught us to pray. I wasn't thinking about this and I am looking forward to going back through the gospels to refresh myself of how Jesus subjected himself to the Father's lead. Also the Spirit speaks what he hears, right? Yep, I need to go back and refresh.
    Thank you [​IMG]
     
  4. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac
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    another good example (IMHO) of this re differing roles, yet still being equal, has to do with the roles of husband and wife..... as humans we (male and female)are equal, but our roles are different, same with the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father, as CalviBaptist has well pointed out....
     
  5. Salamander

    Salamander
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    I believe it has all to do with the Father/Son relationship and not as if the Trinity is hurt/.
     
  6. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Not feeble at all. In faith you believe His Word. Our One God is three persons in one. The best rendering we can find to describe God, the Holy Trinity is in I Corinthians 12:4-6:
    "4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."


    I believe the reason so many people seem to be confused in this matter of our One God, is they do believe Christ Jesus is God. But then we run across scripture that confuses the issue. When we find scripture divided out, we are to fit it back together for understanding. Scripture does not contradict, but separated out so that we may understand when it is put back together as we search in the Word.

    What Paul is telling us here is what many do not wish to concede. John tells us what happened, and we all, always accept John. We need to do the same with Paul, our (my) own Apostle. John tells us "the Word became flesh". God separated out, or divided himself. We see God is a God of division in the very first verse in the Bible, and He continues to show us this as it progress to verse three, and on it goes. But God also has the power to bring "back together again". John shows us God decided He would separate Himself and the Word would become flesh. John shows the "separation" and what you quote above is Paul showing us God "bringing back" the Word, making whole again. God can do anything.

    Notice the many facets of God as Christ pointed out to Paul. The diversities of gifts and operations of God are endless. Is not our Lord, the Word of God, Jesus Christ the very Son of God, different in His administrations? It boggles the mind. How can this be? We don't know, as we cannot fully understand it. But by faith, and the Word of God correctly divided and believing Christ Jesus from heaven did reveal His "dispensational" gospel to Paul. We must study Paul for Christ Jesus revealed "the mystery" to him.

    Ephesians 3:1-8, " For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ".


    We Christians have a gospel to preach to the world and it is the gospel of Paul. God's people had the gospel of Moses' Law; Then the "Prophets", until John the Baptist. John the Baptist had the gospel of the "kingdom is at hand". The Cross of "Grace gospel" through faith began on Damascus Road. It is in this gospel we know our God is One God, being "all in all".
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut
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    I hope what I write here will help you as you study His Word.

    Seth&Mattsmom, when you go back, please remember to look beyond the Lord's Prayer. Also remember to "come back" to what Jesus Christ says from heaven.

    In your study please endeavor to determine to whom it is that Jesus is talking to while he was on earth as man.

    Please understand the Jew went direct to the Father before being told otherwise. We cannot do that.

    Please notice His Apostles at that time were not told to "pray in the sake of Jesus' name".

    Please notice the Lord's Prayer is not to be a chant, and we are warned of saying prayers over, and over, and over again in repetition. Jesus tells us [/I]"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that
    they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask Him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name"………,[/I] (Matthew 6:7-9).

    The Apostles were to pray this prayer for the "kingdom was at hand". That meant they would be praying that prayer in the "tribulation" that would come for the "kingdom was at hand". We can be sure of one thing, they would never do as the "heathen" and keep repeating this every time they met, or every time they prayed. Was this the only prayer they were to say? Here in Matthew Jesus says "in this manner". In the Catholic church, and many other churches, they repeat this prayer over, and over. Some invoke this prayer every time the church holds services, and even in some Sunday schools. This is exactly what Christ said not to do.

    And we see in verse 5 and 6 Jesus didn't ever intend this to be made a public prayer, and we do show our ignorance when we do. "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

    As we search His Word we find further words on the matter of prayer to His Apostles. The time was getting near, and Jesus knew His people would refuse their King, their Messiah.

    At the close of His earthly ministry our Lord gave these same disciples a further
    revelation about prayer when He said, "Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you," John 16:24-26. We see what we call the "Lord's Prayer" has been negated.

    God's Word is progressive, and we must discard the "Old" and dead things, for all things are "New". II Corinthians 5:16-17, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    As we study we find we have no idea of what we should pray for - Romans 8:26. We find further enlightenment in thanks and asking in Ephesians 5:20, "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Chris". And notice verse 19 our conversation with Him is really a private matter. I believe most prayers we make to God are of thanks and praise for "all things" he has blessed us with, and we are to do this continually. Of course this does not negate our public prayer as we gather together to worship Him, but we are to make it short and to the point when praying in public, and not some printed out prayer, but from the heart.

    God be with you as you study the "unsearchable riches of Christ".
     
  8. Aaron

    Aaron
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    1 Cor. 11:3, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God [the Father].

    There is rank in the Godhead. The Son does the will of the Father. That's all that is meant in 15:28.
     
  9. Seth&Mattsmom

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    Thanks again everyone. I am not confused any longer, as I have stated. I am having a good time re-reading what Jesus says about the Son and the Father.

    And you need not worry about my prayer life. I know how to pray the Lord's prayer as an outline, not a chant. [​IMG]
     

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