HCSB on Isaiah 5:11 beer ?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by west, Jan 8, 2005.

  1. west

    west
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    I just wondered in Isaiah 5:11. The words below are about the same in many versions .Where does the HCSB get Beer ?
    pursue strong drink NAS
    after their drinks, NIV
    strong drink ESV
    strong drink KJV
    strong drink RSV
    intoxicating drink NKJ
    pursuit of beer HCSB
     
  2. StefanM

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    My guess is from the halls of Nashville. ;)
     
  3. IveyLeaguer

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    That's a good one. No time to dig into it but a quick look in Strong's says it means intoxicant or "intensely alcoholic liquor". I've just acquired the HCSB and if this turns out to be an example as bad as it looks on the surface, I'll be using it for comparison purposes only.

    Even 'the message' interprets it as "booze".
     
  4. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher
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    Doing a short search on line indicates both beer and wine were prehistoric, in the normal sense. As I recall, Brother Noah figured out how to make wine at some indeterminate time prior to what is normally thought as 'recorded history'. Beer is mentioned in almost all the ancient tales of Egypt, the Middle East and Europe.

    Hard liquor, or distilled alcohol, is also pretty old. The Chinese are credited with distilling as far back as 2500 B.C., but a commoner time frame is between the 9th and 14th Centuries. Distillation was well known in Europe by the 15th Century, with the Scots making whiskey from prior to the 11th Century. (God gave the secret of whiskey to the Celts so they didn't completely take over the world.)

    Isaiah's time frame was 7th or 8th Century B. C.? Both wine and beer were known and common at that time in the Middle East. However, the beer of the time (OT) was generally accepted to be a fairly low alcohol content brew. I would think wine would be considered (relatively speaking) 'strong drink'.

    The verse itself is warning of the abuse of alcohol. Getting up early to have a drink, and staying up late getting drunk. The form of alcohol really doesn't matter to the meaning of the passage. One gets as much a 'buzz' from 12 ounces of (modern) beer as 5 ounces of wine or 1.5 ounces of spirits. People have been getting knee-wobbling, stool-hugging, falling-down stupid drunk on beer since .... well, for a long time.

    I'm not sure why HCSB translated the word as 'beer'; but I'm sure there is some reason. (Anyone have any contacts who could speak for HCSB?)

    As a matter of technical accuracy, Strong's shows the original word for 'strong drink' earlier in the same verse being a different word than the word usually shown as 'wine'. The word 'wine', according to Strong's, seems to be 'wine', and related to grapes. Without hearing further, I suggest wine the closest translation.
    ------------------------------------
    Having some practical experience in the field,
    Archie
     
  5. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Beer did certainley exist then yet to prove it in scripture I really did not think it was mentioned at all.
     
  6. EaglewingIS4031

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    The HCSB also uses "beer" In Is. 1:22. Other translations say "wine" or "strong drink". So at least it is consistant,unlike the thread I posted about HCSB and Gen 16.2

    I think they use "beer" to prove it is not a Southern Baptist Bible. [​IMG] [​IMG] :D

    Is. 1:22 (HCSB)
    22 Your silver has become dross,
    your beer is diluted with water

    However it is footnoted as "or Wine"
     
  7. rjprince

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    There were several Hebrew words for alcoholic drink. Here the word is shekar, which most lexicons acknowledge as including "beer". It is usually translated in the AV as "strong drink". It is distinct from yayin which is usually common wine.

    HCSB seems to reflect the differences in the words used for alcoholic beverage a little better here.

    See my post on beverage alcohol at http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/48/731.html?
     
  8. Ransom

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    This question was also asked over at the Bible Versions Discussion Board, presumably by the same person, so I'll just repeat the answer I gave over there.

    Given that this is before distilled spirits were invented, basically there was a choice between imbibing beverages fermented from grapes or other fruit (wine) or beverages fermented from grain (beer). Even if beer is not perfectly accurate, it's a reasonable assumption.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Agree, Ransom. The "hard liquor" we know was little known in the world of the Bible. Jack Daniels and the Prophet Daniel were NOT the same man! :eek:

    It was "wine" or "beer". And this is NOT the word for "wine" . . [​IMG]
     
  10. west

    west
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    I emailed the HCSB's site and asked them why Beer ?Here;s their reply .

    Hi Pat,

    Thanks for contacting us. This is a commonly asked question, so here's
    the standard response from our editorial department:
    ---------------
    The problem with "strong drink" is that most people assume this refers to
    distilled liquor, which was not invented until hundreds of years after
    Biblical times. The word appears to refer to some sort of fermented drink.
    See the following quotes from major sources for word meanings in Hebrew:

    Koehler and Baumgartner, the most authoritative Hebrew lexicon, explains
    that the Hebrew word means "intoxicating drink" or "beer." It is related
    to other semitic words meaning "intoxicating drink." The similar Akkadian
    word shikaru meant "beer, fermented alcoholic beverage." Likewise the
    Aramaic shikra' and Syriac shakra. This drink, they say, was made
    primarily from barley.

    In the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament Victor Hamilton explains,
    "Most likely not ?liquor? for there is no evidence of distilled liquor in
    ancient times. It denotes not just barley beer but any alcoholic beverage
    prepared from either grain or fruit. In all but two of its twenty-three
    uses in the OT (Num 28:7; Ps 69:12 [H 13]) it appears in connection with
    ?wine? usually following it, once preceding it (Prov 31:6). "
    Laird Harris explains under yayin: "Wine was the most intoxicating drink
    known In ancient times. All the wine was light wine, i.e. not fortified
    with extra alcohol. Concentrated alcohol was only known in the Middle Ages
    when the Arabs invented distillation (?alcohol? is an Arabic word) so what
    is now called liquor or strong drink (i.e. whiskey, gin, etc.) and the
    twenty per cent fortified wines were unknown In Bible times. Beer was
    brewed by various methods, but its alcoholic content was light. The
    strength of natural wines is limited by two factors. The percentage of
    alcohol will be half of the percentage of the sugar in the juice. And if
    the alcoholic content is much above 10 or 11 percent, the yeast cells are
    killed and fermentation ceases. Probably ancient wines were 7?10 per cent.
    Drunkenness therefore was of course an ancient curse, but alcoholism was
    not as common or as severe as it is today. And in an agricultural age, its
    effects were less deadly than now. Still, even then it had its dangers and
    Prov 20:1 and 23:29?35 are emphatic in their warnings. To avoid the sin of
    drunkenness, mingling of wine with water was practiced. This dilution was
    specified by the Rabbis in NT times for the wine then customary at
    Passover. The original Passover did not include wine (Deut 20:6)."
    ---------------

    If I can be of further help, please let me know.

    David Schrader, Broadman & Holman Publishers
    [email protected]
    (615) 251-2559

    * Sign up for B&H e-newsletters at http://www.broadmanholman.com *


    <
     
  11. EaglewingIS4031

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    cool! I like the HCSB and I've emailed them several times about questions they usually come back quick but I've been waiting almost a week for one! see the HCSB Gen.16:12
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/4/2110.html

    but it is answers like that, and the foot notes, that have made the the HCSB become my favorite translation. [​IMG]
     
  12. Johnv

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    There were two types of alcoholic beverages made then. The most common was fermented wine, which came from the fermentation process of fruit (most commonly grapes). The second one was distilled ales, which, came from the distillation process of grains. The word "beer" was generally referring to all grain-distilled ales.

    Translating the word "beer" sounds odd, because the word "beer" is rather contemporary, but it is not an inappropriate translation. The better translation probably would be "ale" since the word sounds much less contemporary to our ears.
     
  13. Ransom

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    It occurred to me over the last day, since I read this thread last, that I wonder where mead (fermented honey) fits in this scheme of things.
     
  14. rsr

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    I tend to think it would fit under "strong drink" rather than wine because it's not (directly) made from fruit.

    Not that it really matters; all fermented products that are not subject to distillation top out at about 14 percent alcohol before the yeast dies.
     
  15. manchester

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    I'm not surprised by Holman's response. That's what I thought their motivation was. They are anti-alcohol, so they take a low-alcohol drink that is popular (beer) and use it in place of strong drink. Now they can say "drinking beer is against the Bible."
     
  16. Phillip

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    Besides, if we are talking about a typical Southern Baptist Church with 80% pick-ups in the parking lot, beer would definitely be the best "modern" translation for 21st century understanding. (Hey, I can joke like this, I'm SBC....or was this a joke?) :eek:
     
  17. EaglewingIS4031

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    You can tell a good church by the same way you tell a bar room. By counting the ratio of pick-ups to Cars in the parking lot. If there is more pick-ups than cars it is a good bar or a good church! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Phillip

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    This is true; however, sometimes in this part of the country the ratio of pickups to cars (or especially motorcycles to cars) means that you should work extra hard not to make any of the local drunks mad. [​IMG]

    At churches, it probably just means more lively business meetings. [​IMG]
     

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